Buddy Emmons C6

[Rich Arnold]

Hey gang,
About 3 weeks ago I decided to follow Buddy Emmons and change the first string on my C6 from a G to a D.
Seemed like a good idea.
But the result for me is that I haven't used that D string at all. It's like playing a 9 string.
I'd really like to leave that G off because it always sounds so thin anyway.
I just can't seem to get in the habit of using the D.

[Ken Pippus]

Clearly batting lower than your league, but Buddy’s intro to C6 has some clever uses, both scalar and chord melody.

[Rich Arnold]

Clearly batting lower than your league, but Buddy’s intro to C6 has some clever uses, both scalar and chord melody.

Actually I'm relatively new to pedals. I've been working a lot on the E9 these days and each and every string on the E9 tuning makes perfect seance.
But even after weeks of playing around with the C6 neck with the D on the top, absolutely nothing occurs to me as to its use. I thought there would be at least a few things that would naturally dawn on me but nothing comes to mind. Almost every time I strike that string I get a clam. I can acquire that note by pressing down on my 7th pedal anyway so it seems redundant.
But, I suppose it's from Buddy Emmons. Much of his MO is very awkward for me.
For example when I began playing the E9 I watched one of his instructional videos where he says he doesn't use the C pedal.
Maybe he can somehow get away with that, but for me I need the c pedal badly!
Maybe I need the G on top, but he cleverly gets by with a D there. I don't know.
But so do a million other players.
I'm stumped.

[Richard Sinkler]

I use the D on the first string when playing single note runs. It gives a scale tone (D) in between the C on string 3 and E on string 2. This is very similar to the F# on string 1 in the E9 tuning. As on the E9, it is a 9th tone (or 2nd) in the no pedals position. Much more convenient than using p7 to get a fast D note, or even moving the bar up 2 frets on string 3, or 2 frets below on string 2.

I also have the 1st string D raising to D# on a knee lever to give me a high 7th tone when using pedal 6 (the F9 pedal). That lever also lowers string 5 G to F. That gives me an F root in the middle range(with p6) and gets rid of the 9th tone giving a full F7 chord.. Using the lever adds or removes the 9th tone as needed. That "moving tone" is pretty cool.

[Ron Hogan]

Rich,
Here is an example of the many ways a “D” note (string one) can be used.

https://clyp.it/2hnv1zhe

[scott murray]

Doug Jernigan keeps a G on top which he will tune to D depending on the song.

I’ve tried both and much prefer the G on top.

[Erv Niehaus]

With an 11 or 12 string neck you can have both.

[Richard Sinkler]

With an 11 or 12 string neck you can have both.

I'd love a 12 string c6

[Henry Brooks]

Buddy worte an article for Guitar Player magazine many years ago called Pickin your pockets. He shows how he improves on the C6 tunning. The D note is 9th of this scale. There's a copy of the article stored on the forum that migth be helpful.
Henry

[J D Sauser]

I have long pushed a G-string around. Now 5 years into having a D-string, I must say that when it comes to single note soloing into the higher notes, about 40% or what I play now would be beyond reach for me beyond 130 Bpm. And I DO jump around (move the bar) a LOT because I play all single note soloing without using the pedals... just like BE MOSTLY (an occasion C-B-lever here and there, rarely P7 engaged over a line) did.
Think of this: it gives you TWO 2nd (whole tone) intervals (C/D & E/D), which makes chromatisms which are not "slurred" much more accessible.

I think the last cat who told folks NOT to change was Bobbe Seymour over 25 years ago.

Not having the D, is like removing the top 2 strings on E9th.

So, I'd give it a good year before giving up on it.... J-D.

[scott murray]

I'll add that I do lower my 2nd string and also raise my 3rd to D. not the same as tuning the top 3 D,E,C but still nice to have. those 3 notes are of course available elsewhere on the neck, 5 frets up on 3,4,5 with 3 lowered a half and 2 frets up from there on 4,5,6 with 6 raised a half

[Rich Arnold]

Rich,
Here is an example of the many ways a “D” note (string one) can be used.

https://clyp.it/2hnv1zhe

I think I hear what's going on now.
Thanks for posting that. It's enlightening.

[Rich Arnold]

With an 11 or 12 string neck you can have both.

I suddenly see the possible reasoning for 12 strings.

[Ian Rae]

Buddy Emmons introduced what are now strings 1 & 2 on the E9, and no-one suggests that they were a bad idea.
To have a passing note available on the C6 follows the same principle.
Of course if the music you play really needs you to preserve a pure 6th tuning all the way up to G then that's a different matter. And tuning the G string down to D as required actually works, surprisingly.

[Rich Arnold]

I have long pushed a G-string around. Now 5 years into having a D-string, I must say that when it comes to single note soloing into the higher notes, about 40% or what I play now would be beyond reach for me beyond 130 Bpm. And I DO jump around (move the bar) a LOT because I play all single note soloing without using the pedals... just like BE MOSTLY (an occasion C-B-lever here and there, rarely P7 engaged over a line) did.
Think of this: it gives you TWO 2nd (whole tone) intervals (C/D & E/D), which makes chromatisms which are not "slurred" much more accessible.

I think the last cat who told folks NOT to change was Bobbe Seymour over 25 years ago.

Not having the D, is like removing the top 2 strings on E9th.

So, I'd give it a good year before giving up on it.... J-D.

Thanks for your input.
I seem to learn everything by listening. It's frustrating to people who try to explain things to me because they can tell things until they are blue in the face and it doesn't sink in.
I think I'm starting to understand how to use the first string on the C6 as a D.
Now, in light of that, I can think of more uses for the first 2 strings on the E9.
I would never tell anybody what to use. God bless old Bobby Seymour though.
Speed....
That's never been an issue with me.
It's a matter of getting the finger sequence right.
Start on the wrong finger and it screws everything up.
I'm also good at screwing things up.

[Rich Arnold]

I appreciate all the help on this.
I'm finding out some things about myself I didn't realize.
Years ago I used to play the 6 string dobro tuned to GBDGBD, and I acquired this ability, don't ask me how when I hear notes, I can visualize where they are on the instrument.
I realize now, that I can also do this on the steel.
I thought this was unique, but it turns out millions of people do this. And horn players see the notes on a keyboard.
But it takes some time. I still don't have the ability to see all the notes on the C6 and E9 but the more I play around with these the more I can see.
Maybe this comes from having to pick things off of records.
And after playing with the PSG I'm starting to listen to the steel guitar in a different way.
I thought the E9 was going to be impossible and after buying my Sho-Bud I let it lay around for a long time while I was feeling sorry for myself.
When I practice, it often feels like I'm making zero progress. But progress is being made! I just don't detect it.

[Chris Templeton]

I think of the "D" like the chromatics on the E9th for single notes, and adding tonal flavors to chords.
Let's not forget that Buddy was ferociously trying new things all the time. Just because he wrote it in some TAB book, it doesn't mean it was set in his stone, so to speak.

[Joseph Carlson]

Here is an article by Buddy about playing in pockets that incorporates the D string

http://www.buddyemmons.com/Pockets.htm

[Aron Odin Kristensen]

Hello! I consider myself a beginner, but i actually think i have something to contribute with here! The D-string on top allows you to play a G major triad in the C6 position, by lowering the C to B. I find that very useful for playing chord-melody stuff and as a "checkpoint" for connecting other G-positions when soloing.

[Dale Rottacker]

I think of the "D" like the chromatics on the E9th for single notes, and adding tonal flavors to chords.
Let's not forget that Buddy was ferociously trying new things all the time. Just because he wrote it in some TAB book, it doesn't mean it was set in his stone, so to speak.

Thats better explained than I could, but let me give it a shot ... I reach for that D string on C6th similar to how I reach for the F# on E9th, to me it kinda feels like an E9th "thing" ... Don't know the theory behind that, unless I'd sit down an analyze it, but right now I'm sitting down watching last nights Hockey game between WPG and DAL ... I also use the D string a lot with the 6th pedal, and without sitting down AT the steel, think I'm using that similar to using 5&7, but don't quote me.

[J D Sauser]

I think you got several valid answers in favor of keeping the D on top:

• can create other chords or complete the suggestion of other chords otherwise not defined in many positions

• can add color and else not present scale/extension and even non-diatonic passing tones to existing chord positions

• is my opinion VITAL when it comes to speed, dexterity and expression, down to the mere ability to play many single note lines, especially in Bebop and even Blues idioms at a desirable speed. (Imagine doing all these fast high pitched lines of rolls in E9th without the top 2 strings!)

IF, as mostly the A6th (and Bb) players will, you do miss the high G as a round-off 5th, I would suggest going to a Bb6th or A6th tuning, which could have that 5th and even a 6th on top. Totally different playing style! BUT then, look at Maurice Anderson who's been playing Bb6th with a 5th AND a high 6th on top for most of his professional career and when he went non-pedal with an S12 tuned C6th (because of the scale being too short for Bb and also the fact that C is more practical when you are forced to key your tunes so that you can use as many open strings a possible to create chords else not available without pedals, while he the high 5th on top and added a P7-B on top too, he also added the D on top (which is also part of the P7-change.

Now, you could say "well yes, there you have it, how'bout just using the D resulting from the E-string being pulled up with P7?"... to which I would probably jokingly first answer "yeah, how'bout it? "... while what I really should want to try to explain is that it is NOT the same to have that D pulled up from E (and thus having "lost" the E) as having that whole tone interval between the two with a D-string.
In Jazz and Bebop, whole-tone and probably even more so, half step intervals are VERY common and having access to half step intervals not just on the same string, but in a more "defined" way from string-to-string without having to fly too far along the fretboard, is in my opinion existential.

And don't get me started on pulling that bottom C up to D too. Ha! Naw.... don't worry, that's an entirely different subject. Not here, not today!

... J-D.

[scott murray]

there are obviously many advantages to having a D on top, but same with having a G. I’m not trying to convince anyone one way or the other but I’ve found the G better overall for things I like to play, which includes everything from Hank to Monk (but is admittedly less single-string and pockets than other guys play). I do think about trying an 11 or 12 string sometime but it probably ain’t gonna happen.

keep in mind no one (except maybe Bobby Black) used a D on top until basically the 70s and a lot of our favorite C6 material was recorded before that... Buddy’s groundbreaking Steel Guitar Jazz and Black album, all the incredible Emmons and Charleton stuff with the Texas Troubadours and so much more. Curly Chalker had neither a G or D, his tuning stopped at E on top.

and if Doug Jernigan still uses a G much of the time, that's good enough for me

[J D Sauser]

... from Hank to Monk

"Hank to Monk" one-liner of the day! LOVE it!... J-D.