Active Speaker > Line Out Puzzle

[Jon Light (deceased)]

Here's the set-up.
I've got a brand new Fender ToneMaster FR-12 powered speaker cab. (Sounds very good powering a Sarno Revelation!)




-- If I take the output out to an XLR input (mic) on any of the three mixers I've got, the speaker attenuates dramatically. Over 50% pad. This is with a standard XLR mic cable. The signal to the mixer is fine.

-- If I run the same cable to a powered monitor, the Fender internal speaker does NOT attenuate.

-- If I run a cable with XLR on one end and 1/4" TS plug on the other and run it into the 1/4" Line-in jack of those same mixers, everything works fine (there is actually a small amount of attenuation but only maybe 5%, not 50%.

I've been in conversation with Fender. It has been frustrating because after 2 weeks the customer relations guy is still not getting response from the tech guys and this is dragging on. But he is ready to initiate shipment of a new unit.

But first -- I can't help wondering if there are clear clues in the scenario above that are obvious to someone who knows stuff about stuff. I do NOT.
I figure that a sound guy is going to run an XLR cable to his board. And I'm going to lose my FR-12 speaker/stage monitor.
Is there something about me plugging into a "mic input" that triggers some sort of protection? (the attenuation does not happen until I insert plug into board)

I don't want to deal with product returns if there's a chance that I'm just an idiot.

[Gil James]

Hey Jon, check to see if those mic inputs have phantom power on in them.If so switch it off and try it. Could be a safety thing built in to the amp.

[Jon Light (deceased)]

Good thought, Gil.
No -- phantom power is not on -- and -- I've even tested this with the mixers unplugged. It makes no difference. Plug goes in, speaker level goes down a lot. Three different mixers -- two Behringers and a Mackie. Tried several cables.
But the powered speaker, an Alto monitor wedge, does not cause this. Huh?

It makes me think that there is something mis-wired in the Fender's output jack. I'd love to have a look inside but obviously not on a new, warranty unit.

I'm just trying to rule out user error before authorizing shipment of a replacement.

[mtulbert]

Jon

I have one of these as well. Have not taken the output of the fr12 to another source. Before you send it back let’s get in touch and I will see if it does the same thing on my rig. Am out of town right now. Back home on Sunday. Let’s try to connect and see if it is design or a fluke.

Regards

Mark T. PM to follow with my number

[mtulbert]

Jon

I have one of these as well. Have not taken the output of the fr12 to another source. Before you send it back let’s get in touch and I will see if it does the same thing on my rig. Am out of town right now. Back home on Sunday. Let’s try to connect and see if it is design or a fluke.

Regards

Mark T. PM to follow with my number

[Jon Jaffe]

Jon, are you running a balanced line out from the Revelation to the Fender Tonemaster? The input jack of your tone master, pictured, has a TS plug. Sometimes, I run a balance line to balance input. Superblock-->Fender TM. When I do a stage mix, I adapt a TS cable to the TM. Tonight I'll get the sound guy to try both and let you know tomorrow.

[Jon Light (deceased)]

Hey Jon -- interesting. I was about to go check that out but then I remembered that my just-purchased-used Revelation does not have the balanced jacks -- that's an option that this does not have. I'm running a straight instrument cable from the Rev to the Fender. Just for fun, later on I'll try sticking a 1/4" > XLR adaptor on the cord and go in with the XLR. Since I really do not understand what balanced vs. unbalanced is all about, I'm in no position to be skeptical.

Mark -- thank you! That is the smart move, for sure. However....I kind of reamed Fender customer relations for their inadequate response (my first contact was 7/8 and I've been 'on hold' since then). The front man knows they dropped the ball and he seems seriously on the case now. He says that they tried the connection and that no, this ain't right. So a few hours ago he informed me that he's setting the replacement in motion.
Thanks! When you get back home and have the chance to check it out, I'm super interested in what you find.

You know, I found a workaround involving an extra cable and a DI box and it works. I was almost going to just let things be and go with that. But....this is nearly $600 and that makes absolutely no sense.

[Jon Jaffe]

I just tried it both ways and no difference. I think Brad will put the balance lines in your Revelation. But for 300 bucks, you could try a Quilter Superblock and return it when Brad finishes.

[Ken Morgan]

Check all the spec sheets. XLR is a standard cable for balance +4 dbm as well as the significany lower output from a microphone. Sounds like one input wants to see a mic level but getting line level, which can wreak major havoc. A DI handles this easily.

[Jon Light (deceased)]

Ken -- well, if the new one they send me does the same thing, then I do have the DI workaround ready to go.
But nobody seems to be able to replicate the problem so my fingers are crossed for there being a fault in my unit. There's just nothing odd or exotic about what I'm trying to do or how I'm doing it. And it works as it should with any other amp I've ever done this exact same hook-up with.

Jon -- You know -- I know that the 'right' answer is yeah, I should get the balanced outs on the Revelation. But due to never having understood what balanced/unbalanced is all about, I'm not sure why I should. I somewhat suspect the reasons or results may not pertain to my level of sonic needs.

However, I do not need the excuse of sending out the Rev to be interested in the SuperBlock. I've had my eye on it for a while. So what that I've got three other Quilters. So it's in the back of my mind.

Back to the Fender FR -- it is a really good sounding box.

[Howard Parker]

I know that "pin 2 hot" is the standard for XLR but, there have been alternative schemes.

I wonder....

hp

[Jon Light (deceased)]

I know that "pin 2 hot" is the standard for XLR but, there have been alternative schemes.

I wonder....

hp

My thinking all along has been that this jack might simply be mis-wired.

[Howard Parker]

My thoughts as well.

h

[Jon Light (deceased)]

I know that a batch of Quilters went out with their fx send & return jacks reversed. Stuff happens.
I really wanted to pop out the jack and have a look at it. Two reasons I didn't -- I wouldn't be at all sure what I was looking at or for....and, duh, warranty voidiancification.

[Jon Jaffe]

Jon, this is what it says in the Revelation manual.

Left and Right main outputs - The upper 1/4” jacks are normal guitar cord T/S
(tip/sleeve) unbalanced outputs. The lower (optional) XLR jacks are true,
transformer balanced outputs (pin 1 floating, pin 2 hot, pin 3 cold). Both the 1/4”
and XLR outputs are active at all times. Both can be used simultaneously offering a
total of 4 possible rear outputs, 2 balanced and 2 unbalanced. Keep in mind that
the 1/4” outputs are the hot, highest level outputs. The XLR transformer outputs
are padded down to a lower line level. This allows for easier use in live DI
situations when a mix console or mic preamp is receiving the XLR balanced lines.

I think the problem might be with that, not the Fender.
Here is a link to a Mackie for about $70 and the Behringer is about $25. I think that is a solution.

https://www.amazon.com/Mackie-Signal-Di ... B079C88ZGM

[Jon Light (deceased)]

Jon -- thanks for hanging in with this. It never occurred to me that the source input into the Fender should be investigated. So I just checked. I took the XLR direct out from a Quilter Powerblock 200 into the Fender. Sounds good. Then ran the cable from the Fender out to the XLR of the board. Attenuation, exactly as before.
I'm glad I checked.

I do have a passive DI. Using it works well. But it requires a cable with XLR from the Fender and 1/4" into the DI. Meaning that either I always carry this or if I forget, hope that the sound person has a full array of hook-up options.

It's a wait & see thing now. Either the new unit comes and proves that there is a defect in the old one, or....we keep puzzling it out and meanwhile I'm good to go with the DI box.

[mtulbert]

Sent you a pm. Absolutely no loss of level plugging into board from output of Fender FR12 to board.

Sounds like a replacement is in your future

Mark

[Dave Grafe]

I suspect that it is a simple impedance issue. Line inputs have impedances of 10kohm and higher, while mic input impedances can be as low as 150 ohms, thus when connected in parallel the mic input would draw current away from the amp's power amp while a higher impedance load would have relatively little effect. Now I want to check this out with the Quilter.

[Jon Light (deceased)]

Thanks Mark. I appreciate your checking and reporting. Got your PM & responded.
Unfortunately, what I reported was --- Fender customer relations (not tech) got right on it and sent me another unit which arrived today. And which performs EXACTLY like the first one.

I'm not an idiot and I certainly have to look at my situation and figure that I must be doing something wrong.
But I have tried every combination of elements that I can think of. Different pre into the FR using both the XLR and the 1/4" of the combo jack. FR out to different mixers. FR out to a powered monitor. FR out to a Focusrite DAW interface. Many different mic cables.

The only two scenarios that do not attenuate the onboard FR speaker are
-- running an XLR/1/4" combo cable to the 1/4" line in of a mixer (or running that same cable to the DI box, then from the DI to the mixer's XLR input)

and

-- running the FR to the CH 2 XLR input of a Quilter MicroPro Mach 2 (intended, I believe, for mic or acoustic guitar). For some reason this does not attenuate the FR speaker.

All of these tests were just to compile a bunch of info from a bunch of scenarios to try to help understand wtf is happening.
Which I don't. Not even a clue. Why are my results different from Mark's and from Jon Jaffe's?

I want to solve this, just because it's a crazy puzzle. I will use the combo cable and DI box when I need to go out to a sound system. The fender FR-12 is a good sounding unit and I'd rather deal with the workarounds than to give up and send it back.

[Jon Light (deceased)]

I suspect that it is a simple impedance issue. Line inputs have impedances of 10kohms and higher, while mic input impedances can be as low as 150 ohms, thus when connected in parallel the mic input would draw current away from the amp's power amp while a higher impedance load would have relatively little effect. Now I want to check this out with the Quilter.

Dave -- even as poorly as I understand the whole subject of impedance (trust me -- very poorly) I've had a notion that impedance was an issue. Just the fact that everything seems to revolve around the difference between the XLR vs the 1/4" configs.

But why on earth do I seem to be replicating other people's hookups but with bad results?

[Dave Grafe]

But why on earth do I seem to be replicating other people's hookups but with bad results?

I'm not convinced from what I read here that this is actually the case.

The manual says:
"BALANCED LINE OUTPUT LEVEL: Adjusts output level of XLR BALANCED LINE OUTPUT (X) for external devices and systems (i.e., PA and recording gear), whether mic or line level. W. GROUND LIFT: When using the XLR BALANCED LINE OUTPUT (X), engaging this button may eliminate hum or buzz resulting from connection to improperly grounded equipment. X. XLR BALANCED LINE OUTPUT: For balanced connection to external devices and systems (i.e., PA and recording gear). XLR line output remains active when amp is in MUTE mode (S)."

Let's talk tomorrow

[Jon Jaffe]

Jon and Dave, I don't mean to add to the confusion, but I tried my FR12 with a Quilter Toneblock 202. PSG-->passive Vol P-->202-->Bal Line Out-->FR12 = bland muffled tone.

Quilter Toneblock 202. PSG-->passive Vol P-->202-->Signal Out= Crisp FR12 Tone

The Quilter manual says,

DIRECT OUT: Provides a mic-level, isolated signal that may be used instead of placing a microphone in front of the speaker. The
signal matches the level of typical mics, and uses the speaker as part of the tone- shaping system, so it is intended for live
performance. For “silent stages” where the speaker is not desired, use the
front panel SIG OUT in PRE mode, as described above.

They further state

USING WITH A DIGITAL AUDIO WORKSTATION OR PA MIXER:
For best results when going direct without a speaker, use the front panel SIG OUT... Use the console’s Line Input (not a Mic Input).

I did not try the 202 with a speaker load and the Bal Line into the FR12. Tomorrow after golf, I will.

[Jeff Highland]

Had a look at my behringer mixer manual

The input impedance is listed at 26 kOhms this would be low enough to bleed off a lot of signal from a line output.

If the output from the speaker is listed as line output that is where you should connect it, not to a mic input, preferably with a XLR to 1/4" tip/ring/sleeve not just a Tip/ sleeve.


just connect to the line input and you will be fine

[Jon Light (deceased)]

I'm chugging a cup of coffee and then heading out for a bit. Just want to note a couple of things.

Dave -- I believe the manual you are referencing is for the Tonemaster Amp series (Twin, Deluxe). This is the FR-12 -- a powered speaker. It has no output level control and it has no speaker mute (it probably should). I believe the volume control has no effect on the line out signal, only on the internal speaker. It does have a ground lift on the line out. I think I've switched that in & out during testing but I'll revisit it.

Jon -- a quick read of your report is interesting. I need to slow down and digest it. I can't figure if it pertains to me or not.

Jeff -- thanks. I just want to clarify that (I think) the quality of the output signal is acceptable regardless of how I hook things up. The issue --- and I think it's the only issue although I may come to discover that the line out signal is in fact being affected --- but the issue is the quality of the output of the internal speaker. That is what loses level when I connect to an external device. And THIS seems to be unique to me and my TWO Fender FR-12's.

Considering that an XLR cable with a 1/4" TS on the other end seems to totally work, the rest of this discussion may only be about solving a puzzle rather than solving a problem.

Gotta run. I'll be back on this later.

[Jeff Highland]

I would suspect that the input and output of the FR-12 are linked in such a way that bleeding some of the output to ground due to the low impedance of the mic input on the mixer also reduces the input signal to the FR-12 Power amp section.