How to "listen" while recording ?

John Lockney · Post by **John Lockney** » 8 Feb 2009 3:42 pm

A while ago there was a thread (in Recording) about bookshelf speakers as monitors, I think it was Bob Hoffner mentioned he recorded with the mix low in the headphones (sometimes partially off one ear) and the amp loud in the room.

Its sort of the opposite of what I have tried, which is recording with "Extreme Isolation" headphones and trying to play so it sounds right in the mix, which is easy to do subconsciously with the volume pedal. The levels always end-up too low.

Any suggestions ?

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 9 Feb 2009 3:04 am

are you speaking of home recording or in a studio as a session player ?

At home I spend a few minutes with the track mix, keeping it on the low side, I set my recording level to the point where I need to have the V Pedal at about 80% to hear myself and it is about even in the mix with the track. The trick is to make sure that 80% to 100% Vpedal is not over driving the input and the level being recorded is adequate. Run some experiments write down the results.

I only listen in the phones.

If I do a session in a studio, I do what they tell me to do.

tp

John Lockney · Post by **John Lockney** » 9 Feb 2009 3:08 pm

I'm talking about at home. I press "record" with the picks on and can't watch the levels and play at the same time... It might just take some experimenting to end-up with more signal.

A Google search for "how to listen while recording" returns a bunch of articles about connecting PC-out to your sound card. (un-related)

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 9 Feb 2009 3:33 pm

yes practice. It just kinda takes time to sort it all out and do 3 things at the same time ! You are not alone in your quest. Find a position that works best for you and do it the same way every time.

t

Brian McGaughey · Post by **Brian McGaughey** » 9 Feb 2009 8:42 pm

I have no idea what you're recording on but I've just gone through the same process...hitting record with the picks on.

With so many places to adjust gain it's easy to get it wrong. Might I suggest:

Start by setting your amp up to play at the level it sounds good at. Don't put on phones or monitor anything yet.

Adjust the input trim to a level of about -6 to -9 to start. If your good at keeping your volume consistant perhaps even -3.

Put on your phones and increase the monitor level to a point that your comfortable, listen only to your steel. I ended up monitoring fairly loud as it kept me from increasing the volume pedal gas. In order to have a volume that worked well, I had to bring up the channel's cue send to get anough volume. This was key for me.

Then bring up the tracks you're recording to. Bring them up to a level that works for you. I didn't have them nearly as loud as my steel. In other words, I wasn't playing as though what I did would "blend" in. I knew I'd adjust levels at mixdown.

It took a couple takes to sync my ears to the volume pedal but once I got it, it never clipped and it worked dandy.

I have no idea if this helps. Also for me it worked well to start "upstream" all the way at the trim adjust and work "downstream" to set levels as needed all the way to your phones.

Rick Campbell · Post by **Rick Campbell** » 9 Feb 2009 8:45 pm

Like Tony said, it's easy to overdrive the input with steel guitar, becaue you play loud to overcome the other instruments volume. I found it best to lower the other instruments in the mix, and especially vocals. Do this to the point that you you hear the steel very well and it does not over drive the circuits. Overdrive = distortion. Digital will not tolerate this as much as tape. You'll figure it out. Recording is just like learning to play an instrument and is challenge. I learn something each time I record and I've got a long way to go. Good luck!

Rick Hedges · Post by **Rick Hedges** » 17 Mar 2009 10:09 pm

John,

Can you provide a little more detail about what you're doing? You wrote the that recording level is always too low. What is the equipment chain you're using? For example, are you micing your amp, and if so, what is the microphone plugged into? Generally speaking, if you're using a mic, it will need to be plugged into a small mixer or dedicated microphone preamp, and you should be able to adjust the level of gain at that point. The particular volume of your amp in the room shouldn't really matter, because you can always change the gain on the mixer/preamp.

Rick

mtulbert · Post by **mtulbert** » 18 Mar 2009 5:00 am

A couple of tips for you. In the old days, we used condensor mics in front on the amp. The volume of the amp was amazingly low. Remember that the sound pressure level at the speaker is quite intense even at low levels. Try this; set your amp at a low volume and put your ear up the speaker. You will be amazed at how loud it is.

One great thing about recording is that it is fun to experiment and try different things and the method described above is certainly one way to do it. Since we recorded everyone at once, we did need to be concerned with bleed from one track to another, hence the theory of keeping the volume low.

A couple of other tips. Never never listen in phones with one ear only. You are on a direct path to suffering major hearing loss. Use both ears or none.

Finally, mixing should be done IMHO through speakers and not phones. The same thing that happens when micing an amp close occurs with your ears. I have tried it and when playing back on speakers, I have been disappointed with the mix.

A good set of monitor speakers is the way to go and you will see that your mixes will sound good in all types of situation if the speakers have relatively flat frequency response.

Regards

Gene Jones · Post by **Gene Jones** » 19 Mar 2009 8:54 am

When I was new in the music business I remember recording in the Oklahoma City Civic Center Music Hall where when they wanted reverb, the mic's and amplifiers were moved into the hallways for natural echo.

John Lockney · Post by **John Lockney** » 24 Mar 2009 5:26 pm

(duplicate post deleted)

John Lockney · Post by **John Lockney** » 24 Mar 2009 5:26 pm

I've recorded some songs from CD onto a Fostex MR8 recorder, I have an OK dynamic mic on the amp. I've been monitoring with some "Extreme Isolation" headhpones.

The idea was to record steel guitar to "Photoshop" my-self in with some songs I like to play along with.

With the pre-recorded and pre-mixed album tracks I find I'm "mixing" the track as I'm recording and each time I adjust the levels I'm also compensating with the volume pedal to where I think it sounds right in the mix... I'm not able to fool my-self.

With play-back on speakers (instead of headphones) the guitar sounds good, I end-up wishing for a stronger signal.

Rick Hedges · Post by **Rick Hedges** » 25 Mar 2009 11:49 am

John,

It sounds like one of two things is happening here: either 1. the gain staging is off, or 2. the average volume level of what you're recording isn't as high as the prerecorded tracks.

My guess is #2 is what's really going on here. If you're dumping songs from (for example) a professionally recorded CD into your recorder and then playing along with the album tracks, any raw tracks that you record will be missing the dynamic control that was used during the production of the album. For example, when mixing, the engineer probably rode the faders (either virtually in a computer or manually on a mixer) and applied some compression to raise the average volume level of any given instrumental track. There may have also been compression on the main stereo bus, and possibly on one or more group buses. When the CD was sent to the mastering engineer, that person probably added some overall compression to "glue" the mix together and also used a limiter to bring up the average volume level.

Just in case we are dealing with case #1 here, what is the peak level for the tracks you are recording tracks on the Fostex? I.e., not the album tracks you're dumping onto the recorder, but the ones you're creating yourself?