Copyright / License question????

David Collins · Post by **David Collins** » 4 Sep 2008 10:15 am

OK, I'm sure that this has been covered, but I can t seem to find it now.

I am planning to record a CD, with very limited number of copies for sale, but some WILL BE sold. (expecting 100 copies or so)

I will be doing all covers of copyright protected material.

Where do I turn for proper, legal licensing?

Can anyone direct me to an existing thread, or provide me with answers?

All help greatly appreciated.

Steinar Gregertsen · Post by **Steinar Gregertsen** » 4 Sep 2008 11:05 am

I believe the Harry Fox Agency is the place to go for info on this: http://www.harryfox.com/index.jsp

David Collins · Post by **David Collins** » 4 Sep 2008 12:03 pm

Thanks a million Steinar. I knew that there was an easy and simple answer, just couldn't remember what it was.

Thanks again,
David

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 5 Sep 2008 2:45 am

The administration fee's thru Fox is where the cost is. It is $15 per song, the actual license for 100 copies is around $5 for each song.

Many have said you can go direct to the Publishers, and I guess you can. I have attempted to do this , go direct, and it is really difficult, there are really no direct contacts or paths to do this. I contacted one publisher and finally got a real person and they advised me to go thru FOX ! Go figure. I don't think they want to get involved in legal paperwork for $5.

In the scheme of things, 10 songs will cost about $200 overall thru Fox for a 100 copy mechanical. The real easy thing about the Fox catalog and licensing is that you click and pay, the license is emailed to you within a few hours and is listed on your H Fox account as well. OR you can spend a week or two trying to contact the publishers to bypass the admin fee which may get you right back to the Fox agency.

but , bottom line.I personally would not sell a CD without licensing, you just never know who's buying.

good luck

tp

David Collins · Post by **David Collins** » 5 Sep 2008 4:43 am

Hi Tony,

Thanks. I went to the FOX site and agree that it is the way to go for small scale projects.

This particular project will actually be a fundraiser for a sick child with HUGE medical bills. I intend for all proceeds to go to the medical expenses. I'll most likely eat the fees myself.

The quicker and easiest method is the best.

Thanks,

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 6 Sep 2008 1:28 am

you should make a contact to Fox regarding the purpose, you never know, they may have some sort of program for this type of project. I would at least ask the question.

But still, even benefits have expenses and if you sell 100 CD's at $10 each , you can still come out with $800 after expenses are met. Thats a nice amount of money for any cause. I think a project for a benefit is a great idea, a great task.

good luck..

tp

David Collins · Post by **David Collins** » 6 Sep 2008 12:25 pm

Tony,
That is kinda my thinking too. I'll definitely ask the question. I'll let you know what the answer is in case you ever need to know.

Even for a benifit, I woul not consider doing it without some type of license in place.

Our Church praise team performs these songs on a regular basis under our Church CCLI. I've read the agreement and it DOES NOT cover recording and selling, whether for profit or not.

Thanks for your help.
David

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 7 Sep 2008 7:21 am

David, years back when I was very involved with our Church Band we did two Cassette programs..I think we checked with the Licensing folks and I believe there was something that stated 75 or 100 copies could be recorded and offered to the congregation for donation. I believe this is to be correct as we limited the production to that number. We OFFERED them for a $10 donation until sold out..which was one service.

Grey area,? I dunno...

I am certain our praise team leader would not have done this if it was not legal under the License. But keep in mind the proceeds were for the Church , not an individual and stated as so.

Now, after they are all sold, can the CHURCH make a donation to a needy family ?

Purpose is everything

Raise money for the Church so the Church can continue it's good deeds.

I would call the licensing folks , see what they say. Whats the worst that will happen, they say NO ?

Church fund raising, not a benefit for an individual, the Church can do that 24/7, they don't need permission.

tp

b0b · Post by **b0b** » 7 Sep 2008 7:31 am

When you license such a small quantity, does the songwriter really get the money, or does Harry Fox eat it all in administrative expenses?

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 7 Sep 2008 10:35 am

Fox get the same admin fee regardless of the qty.

I have purchased about a dozen licenses from FOX, some were for 50 copies , some 100 and others 250 ,,The license fees were from maybe $5 to around $15 while the admin fee was at $15 for each song. I guess Fox gets there cash and the writer gets a penny or two ! But in all fairness, someone has to get paid to do the paperwork trail and $15 is not really excessive in my view. A $15 fee for a legal doc in a few hours seems like it may be a good deal !

Miguel e Smith · Post by **Miguel e Smith** » 7 Sep 2008 1:06 pm

For small runs, the HFA solution is a smokin' deal for sure. Also, Tony's comment about low administrative costs is right on. When doing runs of between 1k and 2k, if you tried to license directly from the larger publishing houses, they will many times ignore your requests for mechanicals for the very reason that they've honed their admin costs to a science and if the cost is higher than the rate...well, they just blow it off. I still have requests into certain publishers (who don't use HF services) for projects I've done years back. However, I did send the license request via certified, returned reciept request mail and also included a check based on the statutory rate at the time of the request. They did receive the requests, have yet to respond and none have cashed the checks as yet. In this case, you simply list the credits on the project and release it. That verifiable paper trail is the next best thing to the official mechanical itself.
As far as Bob's question about writers/publishers getting anything from small uses, I would have to use my priviledge of audit to examine HFA's records, but...it would cost me more to pursue than it would be worth. I do know that I get occassional statements from various sources (including HFA) in which very small amounts were held until such time as the minimum pay-out amount is reached (usually $10 to $25).

David Collins · Post by **David Collins** » 7 Sep 2008 1:09 pm

Tony,

That's an idea! I'll check into that for sure!

Thsnks,
David

David Collins · Post by **David Collins** » 8 Sep 2008 6:45 am

Our CCLI provider say performance only, no selling recordings for any reason.

I'll stick with FOX on this one, just to be sure and safe.

I do agree that the fees are very reasonable, and a clean concience is worth a lot to me!

Thanks for all of the input.