How do you get a good rythm guitar sound ?

Bill Dobkins · Post by **Bill Dobkins** » 14 Aug 2007 5:07 pm

What the technique on getting a good rhythm guitar sound in the studio. I know you have to have a good
guitar but there's more to it than that. What are the tricks of the trade.

Michael Douchette · Post by **Michael Douchette** » 14 Aug 2007 8:23 pm

Bill, there are a lot of different techniques in use today. It's fairly common to run a stereo setup, with one mic pointing roughly at the neck/body junction tilted toward the soundhole, the second mic pointing relatively at the bridge and behind. Some engineers like putting one kind of overhead, or way out in front of the whole setup. If I only had one mic to work with, I'd place it at the neck/body junction. You don't want to get right into the soundhole; too much boom there.

And yes, a good sounding guitar helps. If you have that, and kind of leave all those knobs on the console alone, you'll be in a good starting place.

Randy Reeves · Post by **Randy Reeves** » 15 Aug 2007 3:35 am

I agree. also, I have found when recording my acoustic (Martin)that deemphasizing the bass strings adds clarity to the guitar's sound..

Greg Cutshaw · Post by **Greg Cutshaw** » 15 Aug 2007 5:00 am

I've gotten good results using a condenser mic located about 12" from the 14th fret of the guitar. Any closer to the sound hole and it's way too boomy. On the really cheap guitars, they are still boomy at the 14th fret so I cut the bass quite a bit using the recorder's EQ. You can get a completely different sound with a thin pick versus a thick pick as well. Try both picks while listening only through the headophones and in some cases you may find that the thinner pick gives you more treble, less boom, but a little more pick noise. I use light gauge strings which also eliminates some or the low string boominess. Again, while listening only through the headphones, try picking a little closer to the bridge than you normally would. What the mic picks up will be drastically different than you hear accoustically.

Greg

Jim Eaton · Post by **Jim Eaton** » 15 Aug 2007 12:29 pm

Call Dean Parks!
JE:)

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 15 Aug 2007 1:47 pm

and just as an extra, while you are playing and listening to the TWO mics in the phones, either move the mics a bit or move your position..you will hear dramatic differences, find a HOT SPOT and hit the red button.

oh yeh, if you are using a Large Diaphragm condensor, tell your family on the other side of the house to keep quiet !

tp

Jack Stoner · Post by **Jack Stoner** » 16 Aug 2007 2:59 am

I just recorded a CD project for Jimmy Peppers (ex Nashville "rogue") and I just miked it with an SM57 about 8 inches from the sound hole and sort of on an angle with the neck. Came out great for this recording.

Per Berner · Post by **Per Berner** » 16 Aug 2007 10:51 pm

Why not try a high-strung guitar? (= put on just the thin half of a 12-string set). And use chord grips with many open strings. The result is a shimmering light and airy sound with many unison notes. No boom at all, since there are no bass strings. That is what you hear on all those lush "Nashville Sound" recordings from the sixties and seventies.

I built an OM-sized acoustic with individual reversible brass bridge saddles - when I want to put the "Nashville tuning" strings on it, I just turn the saddles 180 degrees and get the correct intonation.

But that's overkill, really. Intonation shouldn't be a big problem with a regular bridge saddle if you stay close to the nut.

Edit: The picture looks sqeezed on my screen, something weird going on?

Jack Stoner · Post by **Jack Stoner** » 17 Aug 2007 1:12 am

The trick they used to use in the studios in Nashville (may still do it) is to put a .010 on the G string and then tune it up to a high G (same as G on the 3rd fret first string). It gives a sort of 12 string effect.

Michael Douchette · Post by **Michael Douchette** » 17 Aug 2007 3:20 am

We've done both, just the 3rd string an octave higher, and the high side of a 12 string set. Most of us used to do the 12 string set thing back in the day. (I had a brown Fender Newporter for my high string back in the '70's. Rang like a bell!) It's pretty rare these days. It's still done, but very infrequently.

Jeremy Steele · Post by **Jeremy Steele** » 17 Aug 2007 4:35 am

One of my bandmates just picked up a Martin D7, which has the G string doubled an octave higher...the guitar was supposedly designed by Roger McGuinn... it is remarkable how that one doubled string helps create a "12 string like" sound.

Alan Brookes · Post by **Alan Brookes** » 17 Aug 2007 9:54 pm

Per Berner wrote:Why not try a high-strung guitar? (= put on just the thin half of a 12-string set).

Am I understanding this right ? That would give you the first and second string tuned normally, and then third through sixth would be tuned an octave higher than normal. That would make the tuning re-entrant. I can see that you could strum chords like that, but with finger-picking you would have to be very careful you don't unintentionally jump octaves.

I'll have to try it.

Michael Douchette · Post by **Michael Douchette** » 17 Aug 2007 10:13 pm

Alan, it was used primarily for strumming, not finger picking... but it can be interesting that way, as well.

Bo Borland · Post by **Bo Borland** » 18 Aug 2007 2:21 am

The highstring was usually played by the rhythm guitar player using the same strokes as the main rhythm track. It was used to fatten the sound. If you listen to tunes from the 70 & 80's you can hear it all over the place. It made the rhythm guitar tracks stand out.
With the introduction of digital effects, they can add processing to anything and avoid using highstring guitars.

Greg Cutshaw · Post by **Greg Cutshaw** » 18 Aug 2007 5:59 am

This thread has a lot of really cool info! I just bought an $89 Oscar Schmidt (Washburn) 3/4 size accoustic guitar that looks and plays just fantastic. It is the same size as a Martin 00018. Would this size guitar be a good candidate for the high tuning or high 3rd string? Will I need to replace the brisge with something adjustable to get the intonation correct? I have noticed that a standard rhythm guitar is a bit too boomy and too low and octave for some recordings. I have had good luck substituting a piano or using two rhythm guitars in place of one. One rhythm guitar plays the straight woodchuck rhythm and is used as a guide for playing the bass parts against. The other rhythm guitar just follows the downbeat or snare drum. Then I have the choice at mixdown of eliminating the woodchuck rhythm guitar part if it interferes with the lead instrument.

Greg

Jack Stoner · Post by **Jack Stoner** » 18 Aug 2007 10:17 am

You shouldn't have to change the bridge. Just put the string on and try it. Mostly open chords on the lower part of the neck, anyway.

I've used the high G on my Grammer several times for sessions.

Bill Dobkins · Post by **Bill Dobkins** » 18 Aug 2007 10:15 pm

I use to use the high 3rd several years ago but don't any more.

I found my problem about getting a good sound. It was my old Alverez flat top.I bought it in 75 while living in Laramie Wy. I played Bluegrass then and it always sounded great. I refused to think my best friend AL would have gave up on me but it did.
My friend Dave Kirby (who was a genious at rythm) gave me some pointer's before he died, but without a good guitar forget it.So as some of you know I started looking.
I found A Taylor For 1875.00 that had the sound I wanted, so I started trying to put the money together.Then The other day at the same music store (Who my friend owns)He said he had just got this Martin in and wanted me to try it. I bought it on the spot. It is a Martin made in Mexico.A single cutaway with fishman electronics. This store has a room set aside, full of about 20 Martins and Taylors. We tried them all against this guitar. The tone is incredible, there was only one that we compared it to that I thought sounded better. I've used in the studio and it sounds great, and it was only 650.00

basilh · Post by **basilh** » 19 Aug 2007 1:25 am

I think the most important factor has been missed, NEW STRINGS every 3 hours of playing for rhythm anyway.
After one day on the guitar even if you don't play it they will have lost some of the "Shimmer"

1 days studio work with 2 guitars (Hi and Lo or one for different capo positions)= 4 sets of strings as a rule, anything less is just cutting corners unnecessarily.

Alan Brookes · Post by **Alan Brookes** » 19 Aug 2007 10:02 pm

Basil, you must have a big budget. If I changed the strings on all my instruments every week I'd starve and I'd be spending all my spare time changing strings !
I'm sure as a professional you're right, but it's a matter of practicality.

basilh · Post by **basilh** » 20 Aug 2007 2:18 am

I hear what your saying Alan, but the CHEAPEST way to improve that sound of any guitar is "New Strings" better than all the stomp boxes and fancy gizmo's.

There ARE those who say they prefer the sound of older string on their instrument, but I've yet to meet an engineer, producer or any one in the pro recording industry that would concur with that sentiment.
See this :-
http://www.b0b.com/infoedu/steelstr.htm

In it Paul says "Acoustic guitarists change for every 3 hr session. Sometimes they get a good set that lasts all day."
IMHO only if they spend the morning doing the Slower songs.(Which somedays IS the case)

The best way to get a good rhythm guitar sound in the studio, was the question so I'm presuming that the cost factor is not relevant.
New strings and correct mike placement AND the correct mikes.

BTW
On time, in tune, new sounding strings, open mind, Session man's creed.

Geoff Barnes · Post by **Geoff Barnes** » 20 Aug 2007 6:29 pm

Nashville String Sets may be found here

Sorry for the looooooong url there BasilH! For some reason it "wraps" in my browser

Jack Stoner · Post by **Jack Stoner** » 21 Aug 2007 2:50 am

Wow, I didn't know they had special high G tuning sets. But, the .009 would seem to make a thinner sound than the .010 that they used in the early 70's (that was always what they wanted or what we sold at Little Roy's store).

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 21 Aug 2007 3:33 am

basilh, thanks for directing us BACK to the PF comments.

here is a true story..

Thru the years I had always heard these stories that Eric Clapton only changes strings when they break...I could never quite figure that out as the THIN Strat tone is non existent with old worn sweaty strings.

I was at a show where EC was playing and I found myself stage side during setup. Along comes this guy carrying EC's Strats. I'm thinking TECH. So I asked him..
how often does EC change strings ? ...he said..Never..but many times "I do" DURING the show on the same guitar.

I have always been of the notion to get an Instrument to sound at it's peak it needs FRESH strings...not dead ones. I could never relate to someone telling me they like the sound of dead old strings, worn in...Too me , theres only two kinda strings, a fresh new one and a worn dull string . No in between.

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 21 Aug 2007 7:22 am

The jazz duet album I am recording at the moment is;
nylon guitar and tenor sax.

The micing is :
An Earthworks SR-71 over the 12th fret aimed into
the body through the sound hole about 6 inches back.
Panned right.

A M-Audio Solaris aimed at the body and sound hole
below the left hand about 6 inches away.
Panned left.

Another SR-71 under the left elbow aimed at the back about 6 inches again.
Panned center.

The Tenor is in the same room and
is a Neuman U-87 on the bell
and Brauner Valvet a yard or so
up to the players left.

I use a different blend of these mics
on different songs in the rough mixes.

It is a duet with some guitar solos dubbed,(same micing)
so basically live takes as a duet.
Yes there is bleeding between mics, b
ut that was acceptable and even
a positive thing for this gig.

The guitar style is across between
flamenco/classical picking and bop/latin strums,
so it is an interesting sound.

The head of Hong Kong's Star TV, R. Murdock,
studio operation, heard some of it and was
amazed that what he heard was ONLY mics
and a little players phones reverb.
No eq. or compression used.

We will likely add a little bottom to make the
bass lines fuller since the Nylon guitar must
carry the whole rhythm section load.

As to older vs newer strings.
Relatively new, vs old and burnt work for me.

An hour or so on a new string balances them a bit.
At least on most metal string guitars I mic up.

Old and dead are old and dead,
Clapton plays so much, his strings tend to
get trashed before they get old sounding.
Ah the luxury.

Ben Jones · Post by **Ben Jones** » 21 Aug 2007 10:29 am

different gauge picks can also affect your sound. Lighter picks for more shimmer on strummy stuff.

I use a 12 string guitar for my rythym parts...it sounds ...like a 12 string!hehe..plus its the only acoustic geetar i own. gotta remedy that situation one day i guess.