Hand-held digital recorders

b0b · Post by **b0b** » 12 Feb 2007 11:14 am

I'm seeing these little hand-held digital recorders on the market lately. I know that they're intended for voice (taping lectures, reminders, etc.), but I wonder if any of them are good for music (recording rehearsals, etc.).

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 12 Feb 2007 12:32 pm

hey there b0b..

the little cheap ones are exactly that, little and cheap. And thats what they sound like ..

Now, there are several small hand held digital recorders that are little, NOT cheap and sound great !...

theres a thread here in this section started by Jim Cohen asking about a Sony replacement..

http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=102366

here's a few handheld Digital Stero recorder choices, each record in up 6 different MP3 stereo modes and two different Wave modes...

Edirol R-1 ( I use one and really like it )
Edirol R-09
MAudio Micro Track
Zoom H-4
Boss Micro BR 4 track hand studio

With the exception of the Boss Micro BR, they each have on board Stereo Condensor mics as well. They all use some sort of small SD or compact flash memory and USB connection.

I think the biggest one is the Edirol R-1 that I have, and it measures 3 1/2 " x 5 " , the others are smaller..so small you may loose them if you put them down.

see ya soon..
tp

Jeff Blackwell · Post by **Jeff Blackwell** » 18 Feb 2007 5:37 pm

b0b-

I do a great deal of voice recordings for commercials, as well as on-location multi-track recording for music. I used to lug a mixer, computer, mic and powered monitors to record voices, but this year I asked Santa for a Zoom H-4. Now I carry a Sennheiser 416, the Zoom H-4 and headphones.

It's great for recording choirs and acoustic instruments with it's X-Y Stereo mic pair built in. However, for a musician, you can plug a guitar in one channel and a mic into the other and record in discrete stereo. Although I haven't tried it yet, you can use the 4-track mode to listen in stereo while recording and additional stereo file!

I have a musician friend who tells me he uses his on the go for when he has a musical idea, he can record into the Zoom H-4 instead of having to "fire up" a computer or studio gear.

This rascal is LOADED with features....way too many to name, but I assure you, for the price, it's worth looking at. I bought mine from www.proaudio.com and it is still on sale for $300. You can also go to the Samson website and download the manual. It will boggle yo' head.

Steinar Gregertsen · Post by **Steinar Gregertsen** » 18 Feb 2007 6:10 pm

Someone posted a recording of himself and another guy playing acoustic guitars, done with the built-in stereo mics of the Zoom, and it sounded very very good. I definitely want one of these myself in the future, mainly for recording live shows.

Steinar

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 24 Feb 2007 1:25 am

I am pretty sure I will have a Zoom shortly also.
I can find it in Bangkok, so it will replace 2 other units.
No moving parts and a resonable built in mic system,
plus easy input to my good studio mics.

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 24 Feb 2007 8:26 am

I researched this and recently got a Zoom H4. It seems to me that digital recording is digital recording. A Wave file on one of these small units will be just as accurate as a Wave file on a big expensive unit, as long as the same pro quality mics are used. In other words, it all depends on the mics used, the basic internal digital recording quality is the same - digital is digital. The Zoom has better built in mics than other small units. But you can always plug in pro quality mics if you want something better. By the way, the Zoom is said to be 4 tracks, but it can only record two tracks simultaneously. The other two tracks are for mixing after the fact.

b0b · Post by **b0b** » 24 Feb 2007 10:06 pm

It seems to me that digital recording is digital recording. A Wave file on one of these small units will be just as accurate as a Wave file on a big expensive unit, as long as the same pro quality mics are used. In other words, it all depends on the mics used, the basic internal digital recording quality is the same - digital is digital.

Being "digital" is no indicator of quality. Just listen to a cell phone! Digital audio files can have low bit resolutions and low sample rates, or they can go beyond CD quality.

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 25 Feb 2007 12:03 am

Well, yeah, different digital formats are of different quality. Wave (CD quality) is better than MP3. But if the same mics are used, and there is nothing else between the mics and the recorder, isn't a Wave file recorded on my Zoom H4 going to be about the same quality as a Wave file recorded (same mics) on a big expensive multitrack digital recorder? Granted I can only record two tracks at once. But with the same mics, wont those two tracks recorded as wave files be the same quality as the same two tracks recorded as wave files on the more expensive multitrack? It just doesn't seem to me that it is like the old analog tape recorders, where a little portable casset recorder will be way below the quality of an expensive reel-to-reel recorder. If I'm wrong, somebody please tell me (as has happened so often before here on the Forum

).

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 25 Feb 2007 2:33 am

44.1 24 bit on a big machine will be the same
as 44.1 24 on a small machine,
the format is a standard.. BUT...

It comes down to the Analogue to digital converters
after the pre-amp and the mics.

Great mics into a nice tube preamp into a really fine
A/D converter will beat
fair mics into an adequate SS pre-amp
and a marginal A/D conversion.

BUT the storage formate will remain the same.

Garbage in garbage out.

Still these days decent A/D and preamps are
not hard to find pre-built as chipsets.
So are pretty decent mics.
But $3,000 of mics into the Zoom H4 will no doubt sound better.

I expect to use it both as is
and with my Earthworks SR-71's and QTC-1s.
Audio verté recording, like in the old days;
play it right or learn to quick fast.

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 25 Feb 2007 8:45 am

Thanks, DD. Ah yes, of course there would have to be an analog-to-digital converter in each digital recorder, and the quality of that would have to affect what goes into the standardized format. That was the missing link in my reasoning.

b0b · Post by **b0b** » 26 Feb 2007 8:39 pm

David L. Donald wrote:44.1 24 bit on a big machine will be the same as 44.1 24 on a small machine, the format is a standard..

Even that's not a standard. CDs are 44.1 kHz, 16 bit. I have equipment that records at 48 kHz, and I've heard of 96 kHz and even 192 kHz digital recorders. Also, I've made acceptable WAV files at 22 kHz, 8 bit mono.

My original question is about the quality of low end recorders - those little dictaphone replacements that sell for under $100. Are any of them good enough for rehearsals / music notepad / etc.?

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 26 Feb 2007 10:22 pm

b0b, 44.1 24 bit is indeed a standard,
just not the final CD output standard.

There are many levels of hand held digital devices,
I have a dictaphone type unit for remembering lyric or melody ideas on the road.
I have also recorded practices for capturing a new song arrangment.

The quality of the mics are one issue,
but also the predetermined sampling frequency of the unit.

44.1 is basically sampling 20k hz
twice with some extra range that is sonically rolled off.

96k hz is basically sampling 20k hz 4 times,
but like 48k a bigger area of rolled off bandwidht.
Which is said to give less artifacts and smoother sound.

22.05 is 10k hz sampled twice.

11. 025 is 5k hz range sampled twice

5k hz easily gets the basic speach range
if not every high frequency sibilance added.
Of course we use De'Essers to remove sibilances in full range sampling.

So if your hand held device samples at 11 k hz then you get the somg but it will sound more like 30's radio.

22 k hz will sound a bit like 60-70's AM radio, but not quite like FM radio

44.1 16 will sound like CD quality

44.1 24 will sound a triffle smoother,
48 maybe a bout the same, but smoother in the cymbals

96k hz 24 can likely sound quite good
bigger sampling word length / greater dynamic variation and depth
and 4 times the samples, so a smoother dithering to 16 bit
and on DVD a MUCH better sound because DVD can reproduce 96k 24.

Your trick in the hand held realm is to read the fine print.
look at the sampling frequnce, the bigger the number the better the sound,
if the micorphone is also decent quality..

OK in the store,
walk up to a decent stereo system
and record some nice REAL music with cymbals and solid bass,
not rap or synthetic music. Do it from about a yard back from
the speakers mic aimed center between the drivers.

Listen back in the GOOD headphones ,
or through the same speaker system.
If you find the reproduction acceptable vs length of time available at that sample rate, buy it.

b0b · Post by **b0b** » 27 Feb 2007 2:49 pm

Does anyone know the actual specs on these devices? I'm sure I can live with 11 kHz 8 bit for casual recording.

Jack Stoner · Post by **Jack Stoner** » 27 Feb 2007 3:52 pm

Most of the small recorders are for voice only. They are not designed for wide frequency response that music requires. I have an MP3 player with recording capabilites - it's strictly for voice. A friend bought a "recorder" at one of the office supply houses - it was no different just for voice only.

If you want music you will have to get one of the newer units such as the Zoom H4.

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 1 Mar 2007 1:47 am

the specs are as follows:

crummy one $ 29
Good one $299

Jack Stoner · Post by **Jack Stoner** » 1 Mar 2007 3:03 am

$238 for the Zoom H4. Just bought one.

b0b · Post by **b0b** » 1 Mar 2007 8:08 am

Okay, I know everyone's sold on the Zoom H4, but I'm looking for something much smaller that sounds decent. If those pocket recorders won't do the trick, maybe an iPod + some gadget?

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 1 Mar 2007 9:14 am

b0b, I don't think there is anything much smaller than perhaps a Boss Micro BR which records in wave / MP3 formats. I don't believe the Ipod technology has us recording LIVE yet..maybe, but I don't think so. Playback.? sure..

These are pretty small units, Microtrak from MAudio, Zoom H-4, Edirol R-1 and R-09..and of course the Boss Micro BR..all of these offer very fine stereo recordings...live or direct input..and they are pretty dang small...

You may have to wait another year or so for smaller..

Randy Phelps · Post by **Randy Phelps** » 1 Mar 2007 10:21 am

b0b,

I use my ipod to record practice... it sounds pretty awesome and records for 3 hours... I've been recording on my ipod for about 3 years.

store.apple.com

or

another store.apple.com link

you can even detach the little microphone and plug in to your board or pa or hook up a fancier mic....

The other gadgets described sound really cool, but I like that I can use my ipod, then plug it in to my computer and it automatically goes into itunes (or garageband) and I can edit it.

samples: here was a first rehearsal of a song and some ca'noodlin on my tele

http://homepage.mac.com/macmanager/.Public/18w.mp4

http://homepage.mac.com/macmanager/.Pub ... sunday.mp3

if you haven't upgraded to the latest quicktime you may have trouble with the first link.. it is an mp4... I was not very careful about mic/ipod placement on either recording and just had it sitting on a shelf where we practice... I'm sure the other devices sound awesome... I'd love to hear some samples!

Craig Stenseth · Post by **Craig Stenseth** » 1 Mar 2007 6:28 pm

b0b,
What about a flash-based (i.e. no moving parts to pick up noise from) mp3 player with a built in condensor mic (and maybe a line-in), thinking of a Creative Nano or Muvo.

Jack Stoner · Post by **Jack Stoner** » 2 Mar 2007 3:02 am

I have a Creative muvo MP3 player and it's ONLY for voice. Music is very bad.

As previously noted these types of devices are only for voice recording.

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 2 Mar 2007 5:00 am

Ipod for recording, there ya go..

http://www.macdevcenter.com/pub/a/mac/2 ... order.html.

b0b, I guess it gets down to what are you using it for and what the end use will be...

maybe this is the ticket...

good luck..

t

Tony Palmer · Post by **Tony Palmer** » 2 Mar 2007 8:52 am

I swear by my Sony ICD-SX46. It is tiny and extremely easy to use and easy and fast to transfer to my pc.
It is easy to edit recordings and easy to save them as wav. files.
It retails for $149.
If you to our website www.risga.com and click steel show, scroll down and click the music icon...there is a short mp3 recorded with this very device by me and you can hear the quality.
As if all this isn't good enough, it records 5 hours uninterrupted in stereo!

b0b · Post by **b0b** » 2 Mar 2007 9:30 am

Now we're talking! That Sony gadget looks like it might fit the bill, but people are saying that it doesn't work with a Mac. I can't imagine why it wouldn't. I'm gradually trying to move all of my music application to the Mac, as my home PC is getting really old and I don't want to buy a new one.

The Pod solutions - how hard is it to dump a song from an iPod to a computer file, or to burn it via computer to a CD? Does the digital rights management get in the way?

Randy Phelps · Post by **Randy Phelps** » 2 Mar 2007 11:23 am

b0b wrote: The Pod solutions - how hard is it to dump a song from an iPod to a computer file, or to burn it via computer to a CD? Does the digital rights management get in the way?

you plug the ipod into your computer and it says "you have a voice message would you like to import to itunes" click yes... bing done. make a playlist, add the file to the playlist, burn.

The DRM only affects songs bought in the itunes store. it will have no effect at all on your recordings.

Also, you didn't ask this, but it could come up... in your itunes preferences you can choose how you want to rip songs either as AAC or MP3 (and the sample rate) I think AAC sounds better, but the result is an mp4 which people with older non updated computers can have a problem with. the updates are free, but folks are slow to adopt new stuff even if it is the new standard (which it is)

Anyway, lots of ways to skin the cat, you just gotta find the one that works for you.

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Hand-held digital recorders

Hand-held digital recorders

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