Is there an A-Z jazz course for C6?

Jim Loessberg · Post by **Jim Loessberg** » 17 Jan 2002 9:23 pm

Jeff,

How about playing solos to "Giant Steps" at a Coletrane tempo off the top of your head?

I'm going to master that tonight and then tomorrow it's on to "Steel Guitar Rag"!

Best,

Jim

Jim Loessberg · Post by **Jim Loessberg** » 17 Jan 2002 9:27 pm

One other thing I've found about jazz: Stick with it. I have had to forgo any practicing for the last 2 years or so because of the radio show I do and my jazz playing has suffered terribly. I will start again soon but my experience has been that learning jazz is an ongoing process.

Cheers,

Jim

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 18 Jan 2002 6:28 am

I have had to forgo any practicing for the last 2 years or so because of the radio show I do and my jazz playing has suffered terribly

Jim, I heard your set in Dallas last year. If you were two-years' rusty for that show, I'd be afraid to hear you when you're in "top form". It was an awesome set, pal.

------------------
The "Master of Acceptable Tone"
www.jimcohen.com

John Lacey · Post by **John Lacey** » 19 Jan 2002 7:14 am

Over the years I've done what Jim Loessberg has mentioned and learned and transcribed some of Buddy's and Paul's solos, usually in musical script as I read piano and have a scripting program that enters the notes directly onto the computer screen. Lately I've been pulling apart Buddy's solo to "Secret Love" from the Minors Aloud recording. Not that I can play it to speed, but it's a great learning exercise. After that, I will analyze the scalar patterns that were utilized over the various chord patterns using some of the scales I've learned from Ken Nelson's book I got years ago. Least that's my method to trying to understand jazz and the C6th. neck better.

Paul Graupp · Post by **Paul Graupp** » 20 Jan 2002 8:33 am

When this thread comes to an end, I'm going to print it and put it in a three ring binder. THIS IS THE A-Z COURSE FOR C6TH JAZZ !!

Regards, Paul

Ricky Davis · Post by **Ricky Davis** » 20 Jan 2002 11:28 am

Amen to that Paul.
And thanks Brother Jim Loessberg for steppin' in here on this.
Jim is a large resource of steel guitar instruction.....and give us More....Jim...more I tell ya....we can never get enough of your instruction pal.
Thanks a Ton.....now give us a "Ton" more.
ha....
Ricky

steve takacs · Post by **steve takacs** » 22 Jan 2002 8:58 pm

I have found Jimmy Bruno's 2 hour video, "No Nonsense Jazz" to be very helpful in simplifying the approach to jazz. Though it is taught using 6 string guitar, the concepts can be transferred to steel. Basically, his idea is that we tend to "overload" our minds(and paralyze our playing) by attempting to think of too many scales and chord types, etc., when a simpler approach would allow for more effortless improvization. This guy should know too, since he is one of the premier jazz guitarists today. He stresses only 6 scale patterns, choosing to work off those when more outside playing is called for. The guy can instruct as well as he plays. The approach also reminds me of a book that Pat Martino (also no slouch when it comes to playing jazz) had out in 1983 by REH publications. It was called "Linear Expressions". The Bruno video is produced by Hotlicks Video. The video is also humourous in that this guy looks, talks, and acts like he is mob connected. Hope someone finds this helpful.[This message was edited by steve takacs on 23 January 2002 at 05:12 AM.]

Dave Birkett · Post by **Dave Birkett** » 22 Jan 2002 10:54 pm

I've got a great idea. It's easy and it's free. Go to Buddy Emmons' website, click on Tab, and click on "Blues to Use". You'll find a tasty four-chorus blues all tabbed out and a mp3 of Buddy playing it. It's great! It has plenty of examples of chord substitutions, altered scales, the works. It's great fun to play, and a great intro to jazz on the C6.
Dave

Andy Volk · Post by **Andy Volk** » 23 Jan 2002 3:47 am

I found a HotLicks video by the late jazz guitarist, Emily Remler, very helpful. She essentially said that model thinking made her head hurt so she came up with a system for playing jazz using only two scales:
jazz minor for minor & dominant chords & major scales for major-type chords. The one trick is whether the progression is modulating to the home key or not. If modulating home - Dm7, G7, Cmai7 - you play the scale root that's a 5th up from the dominant chord or D jazz minor. Because the progression is going to end at rest - on the tonic - you can add all kinds of altered tensions to the dominant chord. If the progression is going somewhere else - like G7 to F7 - you play the jazz minor scale whose root is up a half step ... Ab jazz minor. This was apparently one of the key features of Wes Montgomery's sound. He was lucky enough to be able to do this intuitively! Folks like me have to struggle.
Remler played very warmly and melodically but with losts of drive and got a great sound using this concept.[This message was edited by Andy Volk on 23 January 2002 at 03:49 AM.]

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 23 Jan 2002 6:16 am

So, let's see. Bruno = 6 scales. Remler = 2 scales. Bruno 6; Remler 2. Which one do I want to hurt my head with? Remember, I'm basically a lazy guy (that's why I have pedals on my steel guitar, cuz I'm too lazy to slant the bar!) Y'know, Bruno lives and teaches here in Philly. Charges $100 an hour for lessons! That's way more than I paid Pat Martino!

------------------
The "Master of Acceptable Tone"
www.jimcohen.com

Reece Anderson · Post by **Reece Anderson** » 23 Jan 2002 9:20 am

Great thread. Its serious, pleasant, courteous and intelligent.

Each of us who listen to, study and play jazz, recognize and have a great appreciation for the complexity of the art form, and the level of talent it takes to be a great player.

I am of the opinion, the best way to study and learn jazz is by studying the works of legends of jazz, both by close examination of written material and by listening to recordings. When doing so, the jazz perspective presents a musical direction while planting the seeds of personal interpretation and creativity.

While studying and listening we as steel players might encounter the following:

First the problem of transcribing available jazz and relating it to positioning on the steel guitar relative to playing pockets, both from a single string and a pedals and knee levers configuration.

Secondly, and most importantly to me, is how to decide on where to play, while playing into the strength of the tonal characteristics of the steel guitar. I learned long ago that precisely emulating jazz legends on their instruments while applying it to steel guitar lacked the same luster and musical impact, and in some instances great solos laid so easy on the 6th tuning, that playing them appeared to be “trite”. The reason being, (in my opinion) the inherent characteristics of the steel guitar.

Due in part to the wide range of string gauges, as well as the 3rd and 6th tones being compensated for intonation, steel guitar encounters characteristics not found in a large degree on other instruments. For instance, play your highest string at a low fret and duplicate the same note on the next lower string while continuing the same procedure up the neck. In so doing one will notice each string, although providing the same note, has a different sound, and that sound moves even further away from the original tone as you move up the neck.

I verified (in my mind anyway) the consistency of tonality of other instruments by experimenting with my MIDI, which as we know can emulate any instrument through actual sampling.

I found when playing violin that when I started getting lower, the exact same sound went into that of a viola and then down to that of a bass. This same characteristic was present from trumpet down to trombone and the same for reed instruments. This is an indication (as least to me) that the characteristic and consistency of sound relative to other instruments of the same family, never varies while continuing through different octave ranges. This again proves the masters of music achieved the amazing feat of perpetuating the color of tone through different octaves that made beautiful musical blends.

This prompts two questions. Is there an answer to what I consider to be something that should be addressed relative to steel guitar, and do others perceive this as a situation that requires attention? To me it does!

I have long searched for a remedy to this characteristic. I have made progress, and more is on the horizon.

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 23 Jan 2002 10:18 am

Reece,
Thanks for those thoughts. There's some stuff in there to chew on. It's wonderful to hear the masters ring in with their thoughts on playing jazz on steel. Please do more.

Andy V.,
I think you have to apply things at least partially according to the instrument's capabiltiies, and not totally generically. For example, even though Emily didn't mention using a diminished scale, I use it all the time. On C6, there is probably no easier scale to use since all you have to do is press pedals 5,6, and riff around the fret. On other instruments, I don't think it's as easy to play diminished lines. So, the idea of learning alot of philosophies is sound, but then when applying them, I think we should orient our playing at least to some degree based on the inherent attributes of the steel, such as picking patterns, pedals, etc. etc.

Andy Volk · Post by **Andy Volk** » 23 Jan 2002 11:43 am

Jeff, when I try to press pedals 5 & 6 down on my Bakelite Rick or Gibson EH-150 I just step on thin air. I haven't heard a diminshed sound yet. Please advise.

This does beg the question of why it's so difficult to play jazz on non-pedal steel. My opinion is that certain instruments such as steel, vibes & even standard guitar have certain inherent physical roadblocks that may not be as prominent for other instruments. Just being able to play the same note in different places on the instrument presents its own set of challenges. What Reece is saying is really profound.

Dave Birkett · Post by **Dave Birkett** » 23 Jan 2002 1:28 pm

I think Reece is really on to something here. When he talked about solos lying so easy on a steel that they sound trite, it struck a chord in my mind. I’ve always pondered the question of how physical difficulty of playing and expression were related. Arpeggios are easy to play on a steel (and guitar and other instruments) but not so easy on a wind instrument. Hence, the heads of many Swing Era tunes sound great on clarinets and saxophones, but lifeless on a guitar. Another example would be Dexter Gordon. Just getting his sound is quite a physical achievement, but, once again, if you played the same notes on a steel, it sounds rather dull. Just a thought.
Dave

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 23 Jan 2002 2:34 pm

when I try to press pedals 5 & 6 down on my Bakelite Rick or Gibson EH-150 I just step on thin air. I haven't heard a diminshed sound yet. Please advise.

I don't play non-pedal so there isn't anything I can suggest. A non-pedal and pedal steel are different animals.

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 23 Jan 2002 2:58 pm

Allot of the stuff on this thread seems convoluted and overly complex. There are many great jazz players that seem to be able to express themselves without the ability to play every voice in every chord all the time. Saxaphone is a prefectly viable jazz instrument at this point and it is so primitive that it can't play more than one note at a time

!

Another thing to consider is that there are guys playing steel with the big boys on Blue Note and with actual current jazz stars using the E9 neck. Often its the unique sound and phrasing ability of the steel that people want to use the steel for in jazz .

I might be wrong about this but it seems like what the steel community thinks of as jazz doesn't have very much to do with what guys are playing in the clubs in NYC.

Bob

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 23 Jan 2002 3:09 pm

Another thing to consider is that there are guys playing steel with the big boys on Blue Note and with actual current jazz stars using the E9 neck.

Bob, can you give us some examples? I'd love to hear this stuff.

------------------
The "Master of Acceptable Tone"
www.jimcohen.com

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 23 Jan 2002 3:20 pm

Actually Bob, you're probably right. I think I'm partially to blame for throwing out alot of this C6 hot air. I think I'll take a rest for now. I need it.[This message was edited by Jeff Lampert on 23 January 2002 at 03:57 PM.]

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 23 Jan 2002 3:25 pm

Dave Easley(?sp) and Greg Leisz both do a fair amount of work for Blue Note. And then you have all that Bill Frissell music.
There are a bunch of other jazz composers and improvisors that dig the steel. A simple part on the E neck can work because it can cut through a thick arrangement without making things muddy.

There is some great stuff in this thread.
All I'm trying to say is that the world of jazz is very big and has room for all sorts of sounds and combinations of notes.

Bob

here is a little thing
From todays NY Times:
January 23, 2002

MUSIC REVIEW | NY GUITAR FESTIVAL

A Marathon Displays the Many Ways to Trick a Guitar

By JON PARELES

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>.....Yet one of the concert's most striking sets was anything but pointillistic. Bill Frisell on electric guitar and Greg Leisz on lap steel guitar played duets with all edges dissolved. Using electronics to make loops of sound well up around him, Mr. Frisell ambled through melodies (among them Marvin Gaye's "What's Going On") as if questioning every note before letting it waft into the air. Meanwhile Mr. Leisz surrounded his lines with a penumbra of echoes and harmonizing afterthoughts.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
[This message was edited by Bob Hoffnar on 23 January 2002 at 03:48 PM.]

Andy Volk · Post by **Andy Volk** » 23 Jan 2002 6:18 pm

I'm with you 100%, Bob, in your comments that there is room for all flowers in the garden. The "what is jazz?" debate has been going on for about 80 years and the definition seems to be ever expanding. Most jazz musicians would agree these days that "It DOES mean a thing even if it ain't got that swing".

Reece, as for your point about the tonality of the steel, perhaps this is the reason, as far back as the 50's, that Jerry Byrd tried identical gauges on his first three strings.

Leaving aside jazz theory & technique for a moment, in listening for truly profound jazz playing, personally, I think there's is a reason why string players in general(and even pianists) may have a harder row to hoe in playing jazz than horns, reeds or even harmonica players. The closer the instrument is to the human voice - and more specifically - to breathing, the easier it is to inflect each note with a fundamental quality of humanity. Flutes are IMHO the most obvious example. String players, by producing their tones with their hands and picks or bows are just one step removed from a more organic process. That's why Louis Armstrong's trumpet inflections, slurs, etc. may hit listeners harder than a Buddy Emmons blue note bend. But of all the string "family", violins & steel guitars have it easier than standard guitars and pianists in my estimation. This isn't a hard and fast rule, just my general observation. As a naturally microtonal instrument, the steel has the best chance of the strings for inflecting this "human" or "vocal" quality.

Certainly beautiful jazz playing can happen on the steel and I think it's easier to swing on steel than on guitar. Why do folks think haven't we heard more jazz of all types played on the instrument?

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 23 Jan 2002 7:00 pm

Jeff,

You are great at this stuff. I get tons out of your posts. I'm just adding that there are many ways to deal with jazz and they are in no way mutually exclusive.

cya, Bob

Don McClellan · Post by **Don McClellan** » 25 Jan 2002 10:24 am

The Hotlicks Videos by Jimmy Bruno and Emily Remler are available at www.hotlicks.com and are not cheap. If anyone has used copies of these viedos for sale I'd be interested in buying them.

Dave Birkett · Post by **Dave Birkett** » 25 Jan 2002 10:34 am

Sometimes, if you go somewhere other than Blockbuster, video stores have them for rent. For example, I live in a small burg and the local video store has instruction tapes for rent by Emily Remler, Joe Pass and Larry Coryell. Beat paying $30 plus shipping.

Gene Jones · Post by **Gene Jones** » 25 Jan 2002 10:52 am

Since Jazz is by definition "free-form"...is it really possible to learn it from tab?

Steve England · Post by **Steve England** » 25 Jan 2002 11:58 am

quote from Bob Hoffner:
"I might be wrong about this but it seems like what the steel community thinks of as jazz doesn't have very much to do with what guys are playing in the clubs in NYC."

Boy, you got that right. I dunno about New York City, but I was in New Orleans over Xmas and a friend told me I should check out Dave Easley's jazz band. I was all pumped up expecting to hear some Emmons or Jernigan type be-bop, but I don't mind admitting that I just didn't "get" what these guys were doing, it seemed both tuneless and souless to me, real serious "head" music.

The whole thing about Jazz is, there are so many different variety's, and I think we do tend to think in terms of swing and sometimes be-bop when we think of jazz on the steel. That is why I was so suprised by Dave Easleys band I guess. They were certainly a jazz band, but not my kind of jazz.

Great thread this. one of the best in ages[This message was edited by Steve England on 25 January 2002 at 12:04 PM.]