E9 tab using " fourth " intervals ... ( I hope ... )

Ingo Mamczak · Post by **Ingo Mamczak** » 22 Mar 2001 7:13 pm

I noticed some interest about fourths and thought I'd tab out
a thing I used to enjoy trying to play which I think uses a lot of fourth intervals over the chords in these two sections .
I'm curious to see if anyone recognises the tune this comes from .
( Hint... use distortion

)
I don't have the psg with me so I only hope the tab for E9 is correct .
The other tab should be pretty close to the original .
That last " 10a " = half pedal so the B strings only raise a semi-tone .

<pre>

__________________________________________________________________________
F# 1__________________________________________________________________________ \
D# 2________12____12_________12____12_____________12_________________10_______ \
G# 3__________________________________________________________________________ \
E 4___________12_______________12____________________________________________ \
B 5_____12__________12___12__________12______12A____12A_________10A____10____ X 3
G# 6_______________________________________12____________12___10___________10_
F# 7__________________________________________________________________________ /
E 8__________________________________________________________________________ /
D 9__________________________________________________________________________ /
B 10_________________________________________________________________________ /

Played
Over a B B E F#

______________________________________________________________________________
F# 1______________________________________________________________________________
D# 2_____________10_________________12_________________10________________10_______
G# 3______________________________________________________________________________
E 4______________________________________________________________________________
B 5_________10A____10A_________12A____12A_________10A____10A________10a____10a___
G# 6______10____________10___12____________12___10____________10___10___________10
F# 7______________________________________________________________________________
E 8______________________________________________________________________________
D 9______________________________________________________________________________
B 10_____________________________________________________________________________

Played
Over a G#- E F# F# (a= 1/2 A pedal)

Regular 6 string tuning ...

_______________________________________________________
E_________0___________0_________________________________ \
B_______4___4_______4___4_________4___________2_________ \
G_____4_______4___4_______4_____6___6_______4___4_______ \ X 3
D_____________________________6_______6___4_______4_____ /
A_______________________________________________________ /
E_______________________________________________________ /

B B E F#

________________________________________________________
E_______________________________________________________
B_______2___________4___________2___________2___________
G_____4___4_______6___6_______4___4_______3___3_________
D___4_______4___6_______6___4_______4___4_______4_______
A_______________________________________________________
E_______________________________________________________

G#- E F# F#

</pre>

Mike Selecky · Post by **Mike Selecky** » 28 Mar 2001 9:31 am

Ok - I give up- what tune is this from? I did try it with distortion, it sounds slightly familiar, but still can't place it.

John Paul Jones · Post by **John Paul Jones** » 28 Mar 2001 9:43 pm

I must be overlooking something very obvious. I don't see the fourths. Care to point them out?

JPJ

Ingo Mamczak · Post by **Ingo Mamczak** » 5 Apr 2001 1:24 pm

Hello Mike ,
Excuse the delay , I don't have ready access to a computer , or a steel , for a while .
This is the intro and backing for the first and last parts of a beautiful
instrumental by Joe Satriani called " Always with me , Always with you " .

John ,
The fourths are in the arpeggios .

<pre>
Bass Notes Arpeggios played over those bass notes .

B B , D# , E = 1 3 4 of B .
B B , D# , E = 1 3 4 of B .
(IV) E G# , C# , D# = 1 4 5 of G# .
F# F# , B , C# = 1 4 5 of F# .

G#- F# , B , C# = 1 4 5 of F# .
(IV) E G# , C# , D# = 1 4 5 of G# .
F# F# , B , C# = 1 4 5 of F# .
F# F# , A# , C# = 1 3 5 of F# , the only exception .
</pre>

Mike Selecky · Post by **Mike Selecky** » 5 Apr 2001 4:27 pm

Ah - I have heard that song, I believe it's on Surfing with the Alien? Although I wasn't phrasing it right - I'll have to give it another try.

Ingo Mamczak · Post by **Ingo Mamczak** » 6 Apr 2001 11:34 am

Hello Mike ,
Yes , " Surfing with the Alien " is the one .
I've re-done the tab in a better octave and posted it under the title of the tune . I'm not brave enough to attempt the melody though

Ingo .

John Paul Jones · Post by **John Paul Jones** » 8 Apr 2001 10:46 pm

Ingo,

Let me ask again. Where are the fourths?

JPJ

Ingo Mamczak · Post by **Ingo Mamczak** » 9 Apr 2001 6:24 pm

John ,

I've already pointed out exactly where I think they are but I'll be the first to admit I could be wrong .

Ingo .

Ingo Mamczak · Post by **Ingo Mamczak** » 10 Apr 2001 12:21 pm

Let me ask again. Where are the fourths?

John ,
First , let me apologise immediately if I incorrectly picked up the tone of your posts here as being a bit snide , but having read another post by you on a different thread where you claim to recognise what a fourth interval is , what is your difficulty here in recognising B to E as a fourth interval when there is a D# in the arpeggio before the E ?
Unison isn't the only way to play fourths .
Thanks ,
Ingo .

John Paul Jones · Post by **John Paul Jones** » 10 Apr 2001 3:34 pm

Ingo,

I had no intention of being snide when I asked you where the fourths were.

When I discuss playing single-note fourth intervals over a chord with the musicians that I know we always mean a 'secession' of fourth intervals. For example, play these notes against any major chord: 5, R, 4, 7b, 10b (octave + 3b). Against a C-chord the notes would be: G, C, F, Bb, and Eb. It is a nice sound that will turn heads.

Apparently the term 'fourth intervals' can have different meanings to different people. Every major or minor chord, and others, contains a fourth interval -- 5-note to the root-note. Consequently, it would be very hard if not impossible to play lead notes, fill notes, or rhythm without the 5-note to an 8-note (1-note) intervals being used somewhere. That's why I thought that there must be something I was missing, so I asked.

John Paul Jones

P.S. I didn't understand the part about unisons and fourths. Please explain.

JPJ

[This message was edited by John Paul Jones on 10 April 2001 at 04:42 PM.]

Bengt Erlandsen · Post by **Bengt Erlandsen** » 10 Apr 2001 4:43 pm

Two examples based on fourths.
Fourth-based lick. Play both examples over a C chord
Ex1 and Ex2 is identical notewise.
EX1 clearly shows 4 groups of stacked fourths.
Ex2 has 4 of the notes (marked w/*) 1 octave lower for a different sound.

<pre>
Example 1
1---------------------------------------------------------------------------
2---------------------------------------------------------------------------
3---------8B-------6B-------4B-------2B-3B~~~~~~~~--------------------------
4---8--------6--------4--------2--------------------------------------------
5------8--------6--------4--------2-----------------------------------------
6---------------------------------------------------------------------------
7--|-group1-|-group2-|-group3-|-group4-|------------------------------------
8---------------------------------------------------------------------------
9---------------------------------------------------------------------------
10---------------------------------------------------------------------------
1 . . 2 . . 3 . . 4 . . 1 . . 2 . . 3 . . 4 . .

Example 2
1---------------------------------------------------------------------------
2---------------------------------------------------------------------------
3------------------6B-------------------------------------------------------
4---8--------6--------4--------2--------------------------------------------
5------8~~6-----6--------4~~2-----2-----------------------------------------
6---------*-----------------*--------2B~3B~~~~~~~~--------------------------
7------------------------------------*--*-----------------------------------
8---------------------------------------------------------------------------
9---------------------------------------------------------------------------
10---------------------------------------------------------------------------
1 . . 2 . . 3 . . 4 . . 1 . . 2 . . 3 . . 4 . .
</pre>

Examples starts on a C-note and ends on a C-note.
They might sound more than a little bit out to some ears.
Try to throw this in and see if you don't get a "What Was That" reaction

Bengt

And I really like the way Joe Satriani plays. I have not tried to play any of his stuff on steel........yet.[This message was edited by Bengt Erlandsen on 10 April 2001 at 05:47 PM.]

Ingo Mamczak · Post by **Ingo Mamczak** » 10 Apr 2001 8:28 pm

John ,
Thanks for the reply .
Sorry for picking you up wrong , and no , the tab doesn't have any " secession " of fourths .
I didn't mean to use the word " unison " at all in that last comment ," simultaneously " was the word I was looking for , as in ...
<pre>
1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7 1
5 6 b7 1 2 b3 4 5
</pre>
Sorry about that .

Hello Bengt

As always , thank you for posting these great examples . I appreciate it very much .
Ingo .

Bengt Erlandsen · Post by **Bengt Erlandsen** » 11 Apr 2001 2:04 am

Ingo
Don,t know anything about that "great example" thing. I think playing fourths sound "out". But it sure is an attention-grabber. Ball is passed over to John for another example of fourths-based ideas.

Bengt

John Paul Jones · Post by **John Paul Jones** » 11 Apr 2001 8:09 am

Bengt,

You're definitely right. Fourths do sound "out". The tension they create is what makes them so great. The important thing is what they resolve to. In the examples I gave above the succession of fourths ends on a 10b note (think "Hold It"). I use and hear the "Hold It" chord (in C it's a C7#9), quite a bit. The succession of fourths in my example will work anywhere the "Hold It" chord can be played, for example, "Tulsa Time".

Another great way -- in my opinion -- to use the example that I originally gave is to add another fourth to it so that you have 5, R, 4, 7b, 10b (octave + 3b), and 13b (octave + 6b). This is a succession of fourths that ends on a 5# (6b) note. If timed correctly this can be used anywhere you would use an augmented chord. Time it so that the 5# note is played on the downbeat of the augmented chord change.

John Paul Jones

[This message was edited by John Paul Jones on 11 April 2001 at 02:32 PM.]

John Paul Jones · Post by **John Paul Jones** » 11 Apr 2001 8:19 am

Ingo,

I owe you an apology. After my 1st reply to your post you replied:

John , The fourths are in the arpeggios.

I didn't see your reply until just now. It did sound rather snippy.

Sorry.

John Paul Jones

Jeff A. Smith · Post by **Jeff A. Smith** » 11 Apr 2001 2:33 pm

J.P.- In Tulsa Time, eh? Sounds interesting...

I like Satriani a lot also, especially since regular electric guiitar is my main instrument. He has said that he was inspired by Allan Holdsworth, who is one of my very, very favorites. Holdsworth's unique chord playing almost sounds like it is a steel.

I'm kind of curious how much you European fellows are aware of Holdsworth. Is he very well known there? Some guitarists in the U.S. have a cult-like devotion to him, but the general public don't know he exists. I think he's one of the truly underappreciated geniuses alive today. (He's British, in case you don't know). Thanks, I know this isn't really the subject here. Regards, across the water.

Jeff S. [This message was edited by Jeff A. Smith on 11 April 2001 at 03:34 PM.][This message was edited by Jeff A. Smith on 11 April 2001 at 03:39 PM.]

Bengt Erlandsen · Post by **Bengt Erlandsen** » 11 Apr 2001 3:39 pm

About fourths sounding out. I can accept b5's and #9's. #5's and b9's still sound kind of illigal. I have to play some more to find a context where they will fit.

Sure knows about Allan Holdsworth. No other guitarist like him.
Here is some of my favorite guitarists that have a unique sound.
Steve Morse, Jerry Donahue, Eric Johnsen, Danny Gatton, Jeff Beck and Adrian Legg.

Bengt

Jeff A. Smith · Post by **Jeff A. Smith** » 11 Apr 2001 4:40 pm

All great players. I can't say I know much about Adrian Legg yet.

It seems like sus4 and sus2 chords pop up all over on the steel. I've started to keep a little notebook of things I find that aren't in the basic manuals.

Ingo Mamczak · Post by **Ingo Mamczak** » 11 Apr 2001 6:05 pm

John ,

I shouldn't have been so quick to jump to conclusions . Thanks

Ingo .

John Paul Jones · Post by **John Paul Jones** » 11 Apr 2001 6:58 pm

Ingo,
We're straight.

Bengt,
A #5 note, an augmented 5-note, is what makes an augmented chord. To wit:
<pre>
Major = R, 3, 5
Augm == R, 3, #5
</pre>

Read my earlier post again about using fourths with a #5 on top against an augmented chord change.

There was a typo in my previous post that I later corrected. It said the "Hold It" chord in the key of C is a C7b9. That should have read C7#9. Sorry.

Jeff,
On the chorus of "Tulsa Time" in the key of C play a C7#9 with the same phrasing as in "Hold It" after the 1st line, after the 2nd line, then again after the 4th line.

A "sus4" chord simply means that you raise the third note of a triad (3 note chords like majors, minors and others) by one fret. To wit:
<pre>
Major = R, 3, 5
Sus4 = R, 4, 5
</pre>

Technically a triad has to have a Root, some kind of a 3rd, and some kind of a 5th to be a chord. So, a sus4 is not a legimitate chord. It is a note combination that is usually used for expression and flavor. There is a lot of tension in it that needs to be resolved. In other words R. 4, 5 is usually resolved back to R, 3, 5.

I hope this helps.

JPJ

Bengt Erlandsen · Post by **Bengt Erlandsen** » 12 Apr 2001 3:36 am

John

Having the Vchord as a Vaug before going back to I is something that sounds OK to me.
Other than that I find it difficult to use the #5 without sounding to far out.
Question: Does it matter if it says Caug, Eaug or G#aug since they contain the same notes? (Stacked thirds)
Below is two examples using b9 and #5. They sound OK to me.
Try them and see if you think they sound "out"

<pre>
Example w/Dom7b9 (IV7b9 - I7)
C7b9
1---------------------------------------------------------------------------
2------------------------------------------------------------------8L-------(L=Eb-D)
3---------------------------------------------------------------------------
4---------------------------------------8R~~~~~~~~--------8R~~~~8-----------
5------------------------------------8~~~~~~~~~~~~-----------------------8--
6---------------------------------8~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~--------------------------
7---------------------------------------------------------------------------
8---------------------------------------------------------------------------
9------------------------------8~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~--------------------------
10---------------------------------------------------------------------------
1 . . 2 . . 3 . . 4 . . 1 . . 2 . . 3 . . 4 . .

C7 G7 (b9 R b7 5 #5 4) G7
1------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2---------------------------8L-------------------------------------------------
3---8~~~~----------------------------------------------------------------------
4---8~~~~----------8R~8-----------------8L~~~~~--------------------------------
5------------8-----------------8--------8~~~~~~--9~~~~~8~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~8--
6---------8--------------------------8B-------------------8B~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~8B-
7---------------------------------------------------------------8~~8R~~~(R)~8--
8------------------------------------------------------------------------8~~8L-
9------------------------------------------------------------------------------
10------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1 . . 2 . . 3 . . 4 . . 1 . . 2 . . 3 . . 4 . . 1

Example w/Augmentend (I - IV)
C (C11) (E#5) (D#5) F7
1---------------------------------------------------------------------------
2---------------------------------------1L~~~~~~~~--------------------------(L=Eb-D)
3---------8--------6--------3B-------1B-1~~~~~~~~~--------------------------
4------8--------6--------3R-------1R----1~~~~~~~~~--------------------------
5---8--------6--------3A-------1A-------------------------------------------
6---------------------------------------------------------------------------
7---------------------------------------------------------------------------
8---------------------------------------------------------------------------
9---------------------------------------------------------------------------
10---------------------------------------------------------------------------
1 . . 2 . . 3 . . 4 . . 1 . . 2 . . 3 . . 4 . .

Same example w/different fingering
C (C11) (E#5) (D#5) F7
1---------------------------5R-------3R~2R~~~~~~~~--------------------------(R=F#-G)
2------------------------5--------3~~~~~2~~~~~~~~~--------------------------
3---------8--------6--------------------------------------------------------
4------8--------6-----------------------------------------------------------
5---8--------6--------5--------3~~~~~~~~2A~~~~~~~~--------------------------
6---------------------------------------------------------------------------
7---------------------------------------------------------------------------
8---------------------------------------------------------------------------
9---------------------------------------------------------------------------
10---------------------------------------------------------------------------
1 . . 2 . . 3 . . 4 . . 1 . . 2 . . 3 . . 4 . .
</pre>

Bengt[This message was edited by Bengt Erlandsen on 12 April 2001 at 10:38 AM.]

John Paul Jones · Post by **John Paul Jones** » 12 Apr 2001 10:02 am

Bengt,

When you use a #5 note against a chord, other than an augmented chord, it should resolve to something else, and quickly. example, lower the #5-note one fret, to a 5-note.

Your scenerio of #5 and b9 combinations deals with single notes. What I was talking about was using these notes in a succession of fourths, that is: 5, R, 4, 7b, 10b (octave + 3b), and 13b (octave + 6b). This is a succession of fourths that ends on a 5# (6b) note

I don't have my steel set up so I can't actually try your tab, so I can't comment on it very much.

You've mentioned a C7b9 several times. I hope that you are aware that my post was about a C7#9. There was a typo that I corrected. However, I will address what I can about your post.

The first notes that you have marked as C7b9 are inverted -- the dom7 is on the bottom. Normally the note order would be: R, 3, 5, b7, b9. Also, you don't have a Root-note there. A 7b9 without the Root-note is actually stacked minor thirds (3 frets apart), a diminished chord. So, technically this combination of notes can be called a 7b9 or a diminished.

Stacked minor thirds -- diminished chords -- can take the name of any note in the chord. Regardless of which note is designated the Root-note, the next note higher would be the 3-note (b3), and the next higher note would be the 5-note (b5). In diminished chords ANY note in the chord can be considered the Root-note, 3-note, or 5-note. In real life a diminished chord takes it's name from the note that the bass player plays.

The same applies to augmented chords except that the augmented chord is made up of stacked major thirds (4 frets apart).

In your tab of examples you show C, C11, E#5, etc. This E#5 is exactly the same as a Caug.

That's my slant on it.

John Paul Jones[This message was edited by John Paul Jones on 12 April 2001 at 11:05 AM.]

Bengt Erlandsen · Post by **Bengt Erlandsen** » 12 Apr 2001 10:42 am

I think I get the picture. Iknow the notes are not in the original order, but I had to use some inversion to make it sound in context. The 7b9 was put there on purpose,assuming the bass-player played C. It sounds totally different from the C7#9. Interesting about diminished chords. Lower any of its four notes a half tone and it becomes the root of a dom7. Playing "out" is fun. At least when I manage to get back "in"

Bengt[This message was edited by Bengt Erlandsen on 12 April 2001 at 11:56 AM.]

Jeff A. Smith · Post by **Jeff A. Smith** » 12 Apr 2001 1:10 pm

J.P.- I'm embarassed to say I'm not familiar with the song "Hold It", but if you're talking about playing the 7#9 in "Tulsa Time" between vocal lines, I think I get the general idea. Thanks.

I don't know if this has much relevance to pedal steel, but the idea that Bengt brought up about dropping any note in a dim.7th chord to derive a dom. 7th on that root, is the basis for a whole system of creating chord forms on the regular guitar that I got from Pat Martino's instructional material. If a person learns a dim.7th chord form on, say, five different string groups, he can move this form up three frets at a time, through four different positions, deriving many of the chord types that would usually be needed, without having to actually memorize them all. First the dom. 7th is created, then major and minor sevenths from the same root as the dom. 7th, and then whatever other chord is desired.

This system doesn't come up with EVERY guitar chord you've ever heard, but it's been a life changing thing for me.

Martino also moves the augmented triad shape around, FOUR frets at a time, to derive major triads (lower the #5) or minor triads (raise the root). These forms can be added to to create more complex forms, different from what you get in the dim. system.

I've found a lot of unique sounding voicings for typical chords this way.

Jeff S. [This message was edited by Jeff A. Smith on 12 April 2001 at 02:11 PM.][This message was edited by Jeff A. Smith on 12 April 2001 at 02:13 PM.]

Bengt Erlandsen · Post by **Bengt Erlandsen** » 12 Apr 2001 5:43 pm

The diminished "trick" works well on the E9.
I can only do Three of the dom7ths because I don't have B-Bb on 5th string(4th dom7th can be cheated on different strings)
Example dim chord
Strings 9,8,6,5 w/8string raised halftone =diminished chord
(1)Lower 9th string for a dom 7th
(2)Release raise on 8th string for a dom7th
(3)Lower 6th string a halftone or raise 7th string a halftone playing 9,8R,7R,5
(4)Lower 5th string a halftone or slide one fret down and play 8L,7,6R,5