Tuning A440

[Chris Templeton]

People went with Jeff Newnan's tempered tuning method. Buddy went back to tuning everything to A440 around 1990, with minor tweaks on the 3rd and probably the F lever. He would play to the radio with everything tuned A440 and changed his mind about tempered tuning.
Maybe in a trio, a guitar, tuned to itself makes sense, but in a band situation, that's different.
What are your feelings about tuning?

[Bill McCloskey]

Bruce Bolton in an interview said he thought Buddy didn't sound right when he tuned 440 and when Bruce tried it on a Ricky Skaggs record, Ricky told him he was out of tune and he quickly tuned back to a tempered tuning. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_fanfdENhm8

[Chris Templeton]

Interesting, Bill.

[Donny Hinson]

I tune 440, almost pure JI. When you get into tempered tunings, you're opening up a big bag of clams because all instruments using tempered tunings require different temperments. The "offsets" for keyboards, guitar, banjo, piano, pedal steel, and ukelele are all different! That's why one person's temperments won't necessarily work on someone else's guitar, or on another instrument When you tune tempered, everything (string gauges, tunings and setups, scale lengths, cabinet drop, bar pressure, etc.) must be considered. And that's why so many players that use tempered tunings have to tune a little differently. In tune is in tune, it's JI with no beats. But any tempered tuning is just a compromise of irregularities, meaning it's never in perfect tune.

I've said it dozens of times already; tuning isn't a chart, a meter, or a method - it's a skill. And just like playing, you have to learn it.

[Fred Treece]

Just to clarify, tuning every open string straight up 440 is not JI, because of the major 3rds.

There was another thread recently about this, and of course a hundred others in the archives.

I do not understand what the straight up tuning procedure is once all 10 open strings are tuned “straight up”. What happens with pedals and levers?

[J D Sauser]

A subject we've debated down to "flame thrower" episodes again and again.



What we’ve learned is the following:

1. Tuning in Just Intonation (aka “JI,” “sweet,” or “beat-free”), where the major third is tuned roughly 11 cents flat and the minor third slightly sharp, is not “tempered.” It is the absence of temperament. Equal Temperament (aka “ET,” “440,” or “straight up”) is a temperament—one of many that have existed throughout history.

2. Physics naturally produces JI. Equal Temperament was created by humans out of necessity, to allow fixed-pitch instruments to be played in all twelve keys.

3. BE wrote about this subject here on this forum, though in somewhat uncertain terms, and his biography also alludes to it, but no clear detailed tuning procedure with "frequencies" or "cent" variation has ever been released by BE as far as I know. Discussions seem to indicate that he tuned up to a tuner and then touched up to ear ever so slightly.

Discussion:

During those years, I spending some time at Maurice Anderson’s home, we discussed the “BE” temperament issue. Maurice did not believe that BE was playing in ET. With all due respect to my friend and mentor, I believe BE told us the truth—and here’s why BELIEVE so based on my own struggle and findings:

After abandoning E9th in favor of playing C6th exclusively, and returning to PSG after nearly a 20-year hiatus spent mostly on rhythm guitar in jazz and swing, time during which I had had ample time to re-acclimate to the harshness of ET. (It’s nearly impossible to tune a standard guitar in pure JI.) I eventually concluded that a pedaled C6th cannot be tuned in JI: too many pedal-and-lever combinations become unusably sour. As a result, I now tune in ET, but with the open roots raised about four cents to take the edge off the harsh major third interval to the Major 3rd.

I became accustomed to the beats commonly accepted on a piano. On guitar, these beats can be harsher, but guitars are notoriously difficult to play in tune up and down the neck—almost as bad as a raggedy ol' 1950s PSG.

For ME, one breakthrough came from a discussion on this forum several years ago regarding Al Petty, who gained some notoriety for playing a PSG with a double row of pedals. Al’s concept of a “well-tempered” PSG involved tuning the usual suspects to produce beats resembling someone singing “wah-wah-wah-what” as fast as possible—almost like an electric piano’s vibrato. (Electric pianos have only one tine or tone bar per key and are tuned strictly ET, which makes their major thirds very harsh. Unlike acoustic pianos, they lack multiple strings tuned with a slight spread to soften the sound, so vibrato helped mask that harshness.)

So I tune in ET and then make very slight adjustments following what little we know of Al Petty’s approach. I play a 12-string C6th with nearly every change ever devised, using six pedals and eight knee levers. The setup often requires engaging up to four changes simultaneously to create certain chord voicings—and because the tuning is almost ET, those combinations actually work.

4. Bottom line is: It’s in the hands—especially the left hand.

BE came from the steel generation that began on non-pedal instruments and progressed through multiple stages of PSG development, starting with the earliest and crudest contraptions. These players were accustomed to conflicts, limitations, and mechanical tuning issues. Yet they became known, in part, because they developed the ability to play in tune despite those obstacles.

How? Through controlled bar pressure, subtle bar slants, and micro-adjustments. Many of the greats have mentioned this practice, and one can observe that they do not always hold the bar perfectly straight. This is also another reason why mastery of the bullet end of the bar—and precise pressure control—is so important.

I still believe that near JI may be the way to go on E9th. But the closer to JI one gets, the more pedal-lever combinations may be cinflicted. Even with all the compensators and fine tuning, a player will have to “fit in” against the world of ET instruments and other instruments having their own tuning fluctuations… again, with bar control.
On a PEDALED C6th, just the basic “Diminished Pedals” are conflictive, as JI, the octaves of each 4 of the Dim chord tones will turn up sharp.
A JI flattened E M3rd to C will make an A6th with P5 & C->C# “mushy”. More complex C6th setups will generate unbearable pedal-lever combination conflicts.

... J-D.

[Ricky Davis]

Me being able to record in some of the most prestigious Studios in LA(capitol records); several in Nashville and all them around Austin, Tx. I have seen this happen in Harmony Singers all the time; cause many times I'm listening back with engineer and Producer; the harmony singer would actually be singing a Perfect 440 3rd tone above the singer and couldn't hear he/she was out of tune and was immediately Fired and left the studio. So is a Perfect 440 note in tune with another 440 note??? they may both be 440; but HEARING IN TUNE either gets you money in your pocket or FIRED> PERIOD!!!
Here's what I learned from my Mentors(mainly Tom Brumley) and wrote this Tuning Tutorial for all my students back when I taught for many years>

On E9th Pedal Steel>
Our open tuning is an E tuning with no pedals and a "A" tuning with pedals down.
We are so used to tuning to E 440 but the rest of the world is tuned to A 440.
So if you tune your guitar to E 440 and play an open A chord with pedals down; than you are out of tune with the rest of the world because your "A" note(chord) will be flat (Mainly because of the pull on the guitar when pushing pedals; will drop notes).
So since I and the rest of us are used to tuning to the E note on a Pedal steel guitar from the start; what I would suggest is to push "a" and "b" pedals down and while down; pick your "E" note(highest open "E") and tune it to 440 on your tuner. Now let off your pedals and play that "E" note again and look at where it now lays on your tuner(usually sharp to 440); and that is your "NEW" E note and go ahead and retune the rest of your guitar to that E note reference like your used to(and now with pedals down; your "A" note will be in tune to E440 because your pedals down "E" note is 440.
So the way it turns out for your particular guitar is how much difference there is in the way your guitar re-acts to the pedals pushed.
So now in all probability your open E reference is sharp to E 440; but your "A" chord is now tuned to "A" 440 and you will play in better tune than you ever have; if your not already doing this. It is ok to the ear to be slightly sharp.....but it is never ok to be flat. Sharp adds excitement; and Flat adds Death>to the music.
I always tune my guitar by ear; as Tom Brumley once told me: "Ricky if you always practice on tuning your guitar by ear; than you are practicing on playing in tune and that is the goal here"!!!.
I do have the notes somewhat memorized where they lay on my tuner for my guitar, for the times that I don't get to make any noise at the gig or don't have time or can't hear. But finding out how your guitar tunes to "A" 440 is VERY important.
Another little practice thing I do at home when I ever practice; is I never practice with reverb and after tuning my steel; I will turn on my metronome that has a "A" 440 pitch to it; and I just warm up and play along with that "A" pitch going and you can play in key of A or E or D or C and I really listen to playing in tune with that pitch while I warm up or work on what ever.
-------------------------------------------------
E9th Pedal steel tuning procedure

First you tune your "A" note to 440 then with
pedals down tune your "E" note to that "A" 440
note. Now you have the new "E" note reference to
"A" 440.
Tuning the open tuning.
Tune the other E note(4and8)
Tune the G#'s (3and6)to E
Tune the B's (5and10)to E
Tune the F#'s (1and7)to B
Tune the D# to B(2nd string)
Tuning the pedals and knee levers
Tune the A pedal(5and10) to the E note
Tune the B pedal(3and6)to the E note("A"440)
Tune the C pedal(4and5)to the A note
Tune E lower knee(4and8)to the B note
Tune E raise knee(4and8) to the A pedal
Tune D note(9th string) to and "A" note
Tune D# lower 1/2 tone to 9th string
Tune D# lower whole tone to A pedal

[Dennis Detweiler]

Deleted

[Dennis Detweiler]

Yes, Ricky explained it perfectly. I found my needle tuner sweetness the same way. I've never sounded out of tune in a recorded playback with a keyboard, myself and the rest of the studio players. Getting the "A" notes to 440 and the rest of the open strings, pedals and knee levers sweetened makes everybody sound sweet. It's especially noticeable on slow songs. When sustained chords are played and all notes are at 440 within a chord it will sound out of tune and a good engineer with an ear will stare at you and point to the door.

[Fred Treece]

Okay, thanks. By these definitions I have been tuning straight up A440 with tempered 3rds all along. I think

[David Wren]

Well, after numerous posts on tuning, guess I'll chime in. I think the last few posts about the importance of having pedals down A, tuned to 440 is a real good starting point.

Way back in the day before electronic tuners, we all used to tune to an A=440 tuning fork (hit it, hold it above your pickup, tune the A notes, then adjust the rest of the strings to that 440 on the A strings). Using harmonics to match the beats I guess was ET? However, since then I, like the rest of the world, have gotten used to tuning "machines"....

but, it still makes sense to me and my ears, tune the A (pedals down) to 440, (the G# open, I tune the 3rd string a little flat, the others straight up. Flat the open 3rds some, and the rest I give a touch of sharpness (to handle cabinet drop).

Hope this helps the newer players, One thing I would add, when your pedal adjustments start sounding out, put on new strings... in the long run you will be ahead of having to re-adjust the pedals stops.

Just my $.02

By the way, use your ears, you will need them to master this instrument, and then master the smooth use of a volume pedal.

[Dave Mudgett]

Yes, pretty much A = 440 for the roots for me. I pretty much take Ricky's approach and tune E's to 440 with pedals down, or sometimes just tune E's to 442 with the pedals up. But for me, it's most important that I'm in-tune (as much as possible) with the pitch-center of the people I'm playing with, and I tune by ear unless it's completely impossible. Very recent discussion on this same basic topic here - viewtopic.php?t=412101

I think I covered my approach to this there, but I think it is all summed up for me by Ricky's quote from Tom Brumley:

I always tune my guitar by ear; as Tom Brumley once told me: "Ricky if you always practice on tuning your guitar by ear; than you are practicing on playing in tune and that is the goal here"!!!.

As Ricky notes, it is sometimes very tough to always tune by ear. And there are compromises brought on by other players' in-tuneness, mechanical issues with the instrument, prohibition on making sounds on stage at times, and so on. But I still think it's important to develop the skill of tuning by ear. In other words, I believe the (more or less) logical inverse of Tom's statement is also true: If you can't tune by ear so it sounds good, then how are you going to play by ear so it sounds good? Note Bene: these two statements (conditional and its logical inverse) are not the same!

Many talk about Buddy using ET later in his career. Two points: 1) I think it's clear that he at least nudged 3rds towards JI somewhat; and 2) How many of us have Buddy's skill level to be able to play in-tune like this? I think it is undoubtedly possible via a combination of skill in micro-adjusting the bar in various ways, avoiding certain note combinations/chords that would not sound good, and so on. Personally, I have not found that workable on pedal steel, at this point anyway.

[Dennis Detweiler]

It is so much quicker to tune with an electronic tuner. Before tuners, I tuned with an E pitchfork (tap it and touch it on the pickup to carry it to the amp or tap and stick it between my front teeth to vibrate the note in my skull). Tuning by ear was challenging most of the time in competing with the jukebox or other players tuning at the same time or card players that were annoyed by it. Plus, touching up the guitar between sets is fast. I can still tune by ear, but prefer the tuner.