Unfortunately Alkire and Leavitt Tuning Sound Like Organ to Me. Any Ideas?

[Robert Clifton]

I love chord melody guitar and I really like the idea of having a lot of jazz chords at my disposal. Unfortunately many of the people I hear playing leavitt or alkire seem to sound like an organ to me. Is there any way to approach these tunings while having more of a steel sound?

I really enjoy the extremely respectful tone of this forum. I am not interested in putting any of these players down. I am interested in more of the feel of Santos and Johnny/ Jerry Byrd but with more of a chord melody vibe and I am genuinely interested in ideas. Per Mike Neer I have seen his diminished workshop and it appears he is getting diminished chords by moving the bar back and forth, I do not care for how this sounds personally, even though I had "Steelonius" on heavy rotation even before I owned a steel guitar. I would be interested in a more "old school" tuning with all of the chords available by either slant or straight bar ( minor 7, major 7, dominant 7, diminished) as well.

[Bill McCloskey]

I have a ton of eharp players on my youtube channel, including recordings of Eddiel Alkire. Here is a piece of Eddies I recorded on Eharp using the Alkire tuning https://youtu.be/up21nKZR3E4?si=rFiG9XH538SD_KbH

There is a tone more on the channel https://www.youtube.com/@Steel-guitar

[Stanislav Paskalev]

Robert, it helps to look at a diagrams. For brevity here's only Leavitt on 6 strings.

Code: Select all

    /----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----\
    | 1  | 2  | 3  | 4  | 5  | 6  | 7  | 8  | 9  | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 |
    |----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----|
 D  | D# | E  | F  | F# | G  | G# | A  | A# | B  | C  | C# | D  | D# | E  | F  |
 C  | C# | D  | D# | E  | F  | F# | G  | G# | A  | A# | B  | C  | C# | D  | D# |
 A# | B  | C  | C# | D  | D# | E  | F  | F# | G  | G# | A  | A# | B  | C  | C# |
 G  | G# | A  | A# | B  | C  | C# | D  | D# | E  | F  | F# | G  | G# | A  | A# |
 E  | F  | F# | G  | G# | A  | A# | B  | C  | C# | D  | D# | E  | F  | F# | G  |
 C# | D  | D# | E  | F  | F# | G  | G# | A  | A# | B  | C  | C# | D  | D# | E  |
    \----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----/

Anytime you change chords chances are the next chord is on a different set of strings, which does not allow sliding into it.

Voice leading is also tricky. Stuff like 3<->7 and 9<->13 is hard to pull just by sliding the bar.


I really want to hear Mike Ihde's arrangements using Leavitt but after his passing it appears that his albums aren't sold anywhere. I had a thread in the buying section about them but no one offered them either.

[Michael Kiese]

I would be interested in a more "old school" tuning with all of the chords available by either slant or straight bar ( minor 7, major 7, dominant 7, diminished) as well.

Aloha Robert,

According to the quote I clipped above, what you're looking for is C6 tuning.

You also mentioned that you're interested in the feel of Santo and Johnny, and Jerry Byrd.

Sleepwalk is easily played on C6. I've never researched Santo's tunings because other than Sleepwalk, none of their other songs spoke to me. They did a lot of covers, and Santo was primarily a single note line melody player. That said, Sleepwalk should be in every steel players repertoire. It still has that magic, and is still highly recognizable.

Jerry Byrd invented C6. He passed at the ripe old age of 85. He was still playing at a very high level right up until his health failed, which is pretty amazing. A lot of other players quit playing long before that, Buddy Emmons is an example.

Jerry settled on a double neck guitar, with C6 on the close neck and C Diatonic on the other neck. Both tunings were his invention. Nobody sounds like Jerry.

As a caveat, Jerry would alter his C6 to any other tuning he'd need it to be as per the need of the song. But the C Diatonic neck always stayed in C Diatonic.

Here's a great example of Jerry playing the song "Sand" at PBS Hawai'i studios in 2000, putting Jerry at around 80 years old. https://youtu.be/jXEP5DFDMM4?si=FtKO3Bl_LPOc3uEX

It's likely that he tuned his close neck to B11 (quick tuning from C6). You can see how he sticks to B11 during the instrumental which is in the key of D. Then in the middle of the song, they modulate to the key of C and Gary Aiko sings the lyrics. At the same time, Jerry switches to the C Diatonic neck to play accompaniment.

A heck of a lot of musicianship and thought went into that performance of "Sand". Jerry and the Boys pulled it off seamlessly.

After a lifetime of stewardship and chasing tuning rabbit holes, Jerry settled on a double neck guitar with his main neck based upon C6, and his secondary neck in C Diatonic. Few players, if none at all, picked up the torch that Jerry left in the sand. I think there's a lot of undiscovered real estate with that tuning combination.

I can't speak at all for the Alkire tunings in regards to playing them. Empirically speaking though, those tunings are largely abandoned. C6/A6 is still up there as the most used tunings because of their versatility.

All that said, what you're searching for is C6. It's all in there. Whether it sounds good or not to you, it's literally in your own hands. Start with C6 as your base. If you ever get good enough, get froggy and leap to learning C Diatonic, Alkire, etc.

In my opinion, you're going to get the most mileage with C6/A6 and you're gonna hit the ground running the fastest playing and enjoying music with those tunings. In the end, whatever tuning you choose, all that's important is that you make music with it and enjoy. In those regards, all tunings are valid.

Happy Holidays, and Enjoy!

[Robert Clifton]

Wow! so many great responses
Bill - thanks for the link. This answers my question about how the Alkire tuning can sound more like a steel guitar to me.
Stansilav
Thanks for the 6 string leavitt stuff- I have seen your 8 string diagrams too, thanks for the work. I agree with you that it would be great to get Mike Ihde's stuff, but it seems like after his death, his steel guitar albums and instructional materials are impossible to get. A pity, I would really like to here the tuning on Ellington early Blue note heads.
Mike
I agree with you about starting with c6 or A6 I have a double 8 string master and a 10 string Hudson non pedal. I plan on having the neck closest to me be an A6 because it resembles the dobro with a few extra strings. I am thinking B11 on the other neck because i really enjoy tunes like Byrd"s "Sand". This question is mostly about what to do with the ten string.

[David DeLoach]

I love chord melody guitar and I really like the idea of having a lot of jazz chords at my disposal. Unfortunately many of the people I hear playing leavitt or alkire seem to sound like an organ to me. Is there any way to approach these tunings while having more of a steel sound?

I really enjoy the extremely respectful tone of this forum. I am not interested in putting any of these players down. I am interested in more of the feel of Santos and Johnny/ Jerry Byrd but with more of a chord melody vibe and I am genuinely interested in ideas. Per Mike Neer I have seen his diminished workshop and it appears he is getting diminished chords by moving the bar back and forth, I do not care for how this sounds personally, even though I had "Steelonius" on heavy rotation even before I owned a steel guitar. I would be interested in a more "old school" tuning with all of the chords available by either slant or straight bar ( minor 7, major 7, dominant 7, diminished) as well.

Do you have some specific songs you'd like to play with this approach?

[Mike Neer]

Robert, can you can clarify what you mean by "sliding the bar back and forth"? Do you mean getting all your chords while staying in one position?

[Bill McCloskey]

Robert if you'd like to look at all the Alkire lessons for Eharp, drop me a PM with your email address. I have them all in a dropbox. with the Alkire tuning you can get 53 chords on the same fret in a straight bar position.

[Michael Kiese]

Mike
I agree with you about starting with c6 or A6 I have a double 8 string master and a 10 string Hudson non pedal. I plan on having the neck closest to me be an A6 because it resembles the dobro with a few extra strings. I am thinking B11 on the other neck because i really enjoy tunes like Byrd"s "Sand". This question is mostly about what to do with the ten string.

Aloha Robert,

Since you have a D8, consider tuning it to A6 and C6. Both A6 and C6 can be tuned to B11, but A6 can more easily be tuned to B11 than C6. With C6, you have to raise some strings, and lower some strings to get B11. With A6, you just have to raise strings. Either way works though. C6, A6, and B11 are very closely related tunings. They are a power trio, lol. You can get 'em all on one neck.

Having a D8 just makes things that much more convenient. You can easily have pairings of A6 & C6, A6 & B11, or B11 & C6. You have options.

Regarding your 10 string, I don't mess with those, lol. So I'm not going to comment on that.

I'd only caution you to be fully aware and make a conscious choice: Do you prefer the enjoyment of playing music, or Do you prefer the intellectual stimulation of learning a tuning? Both are valid forms of enjoyment. I'm just in the first camp. To me, tunings are tools to make music. They are just a means to an ends. Some people like to chase tunings and try to make sounds with them, and try to turn that into music. I'm the opposite. I start with the music I want to play, and find the tuning that is the most pragmatic. I ALWAYS have performance in front of a live audience as my desired end result. Others may prefer to stay at home and enjoy the intellectual stimulation at their leisure, and that's fine too.

But like I said, enjoyment is enjoyment. As long as you are enjoying yourself, then any path you take is valid. Some paths are shorter than others, but the journey is where the learning occurs.

Enjoy!

[Nic Neufeld]

Limitations often are what make up an instruments sound and character. Think about nonpedal vs pedal steel. There are pedal players who can play all kinds of stuff without ever having to move their bar or do a slant. Nonpedallers can't do that so we end up having to move the bar, connect notes, do funny things with the bar, all that stuff. So a "simpler" tuning like C13 or C6 (or A6, or dobro, etc etc) has to compensate with techniques that end up being part of the unique sound of the instrument/tuning (IMO).

I've not listened to too terribly much of Alkire/Leavitt tunings but from what I remember I kind of understand your characterization...sometimes it is more like playing a harp (they are so named!) because you have all the chords there and don't need (as much) to move the bar, slant, etc. I think this is fine for what it is, but it will sound different than Jerry Byrd for sure...partly because of the removed limitations that allow you to stay more anchored to a position. Neither is better or worse, just different in how they sound.

If I had a ten string, well I would consider an extended B11, personally. (this isn't me giving a personal recommendation because like Michael, I'm not a ten string player) I have sometimes wished I had a high G# to get major 7ths (Mapuana seems to cry out for it). Not sure what to do with the additional string (it could certainly be strung up with just 9) but I would think about doing something like this:
1-3-5-1-3-5-b7-9-11-13
Adding either a low 3rd, or you could also put an additional 9th in between the 1 and 3, I think Jerry would tune the 1 there up to the 9th. Honestly I wouldn't miss it, I think I just want a 9 string to get that AMaj7 chord up top!

Just my 2c. Good luck with your experimentation!

[Bill McCloskey]

Here is a link to a dropbox with ALL the Alkire lessons in it. https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fo/6dca8nom ... iedjr&dl=0