Mic the amp, or direct out (tone block 202)

[Lynn Kasdorf]

I like to run my amp through the PA. If my amp has to fill the house, it is hard for me to play loud enough- I gravitate to a lower stage volume.

For many years I have been using a Sennheiser 906 on my Peavey N112 and it has been working great. However, I bought a new amp. In a few days, I will be receiving a Quilter TT12 (tone block 202 with Travis Toy speaker). I am wondering what will be the best PA approach with this rig.

I could certainly continue to mic the amp with the Sennheiser. But I suspect the tone block's direct out might work well too. One obvious difference is that the mic pics up the tone of the speaker, which I have always figured was a big part of the sound. It seems like direct would have a significantly different tone as compared to the mic.

But the direct out has advantages, such as less clutter on stage, faster setup/teardown, and the ability to make the output to the PA independent of the stage volume.

I'm just wondering what the common practice is with Quilter amps, and others.

[Wiz Feinberg]

I also use a Nashville 112, when I use an amp onstage. It has an XLR out that I feed to the FOH mixer. The only time I mic the speaker is in the rare instances when there is a ground loop causing hum in the amp. This is so rare it's almost a non-issue for me. Of course, the direct output excludes the tones coming from the speaker. If hearing the speaker and the front of stage speakers is important, I guess you're better off miking the Quilter.

In my experience, what I hear from my amps is never what the audience hears, unless I am loud enough to override the FOH! I usually get told to turn down when that occurs.

Let me share my new trick for getting along with the soundman and the people next to me onstage. If they say my amp is too loud, I have whomever is controlling the monitor mix turn UP my steel in my monitor, or IEMs. This causes me to automatically back off my volume pedal, lowering the amplifier's volume to the point that the others are happy. I know I'm too loud if I can't hear the singers!

[Ian Rae]

On my rare gigs that are large enough to need help from PA, I give them the stereo DI from my Telonics preamp, which has some modeling available. I know that when recording, some folks like to mic the amp but I don't like the idea of putting two speakers between the guitar and the audience in case their characteristics detract from each other.
I play a 12-string with a lot of effects, and although the Telonics speakers are excellent, I'd still rather send a full-frequency clean sound to the PA. Also I double on bass, which I guess is the clincher.

[Jon Jaffe]

Mic the speaker. You would not get the sound of the TT speaker going direct. Also, if you do choose to go direct, take the signal from the 1/4 line out on the front. It suggests that in the manual.

[Ian Rae]

To reproduce the subtleties of a particular speaker unit you would need a high-quality mic with a very flat frequency response (plausible) and an equally flat PA system (less so). I very much doubt if anyone can identify a loudspeaker unit by listening to it over the PA.
Clearly a lot of folks like mics because they feel they have more control over what goes to the PA, but do they have any more over what comes out of it?

[Lynn Kasdorf]

Mic the speaker. You would not get the sound of the TT speaker going direct. Also, if you do choose to go direct, take the signal from the 1/4 line out on the front. It suggests that in the manual.

It is interesting. The manual claims (and Travis' video) says that the XLR direct out somehow uses the dynamic load characteristics of the speaker to affect the signal. Hmmm.

The front panel 1/4" output is the one to use when you have no speaker at all, also as a headphone out. According to TT, there is some "modeling" on that output.

I have a really good mic (Sennheiser 906) and I may continue using that but I will try both outputs at my next gig at Hank Dietles (where the sound person is really good). I can't wait to try this out!

Jon, do you use a Quilter?

[Jon Jaffe]

Lynn, I do have a Quilter 202 installed in a TT cabinet. It was a pain in the ass to adjust on the fly when the amp was in tilt-back mode. I bought a super block to put at my feet to adjust the amp without having to stand up and turn my back on the venue. Eventually, I got a powered cabinet, the Fender FR 12, and I am totally satisfied with that solution. The 202 is a backup. Then, I got to experiment with the 202 into the FR 12. The balance line out of the 202 was unacceptable into the FR 12 but the signal out was just the tone I was looking for.

I'm sure you have another amplifier to experiment with this. Patch the balanced line output to the input of your other amplifier and compare it with the signal-out.

[Jon Jaffe]

Lynn, to clarify my previous post, I have used the line out at times. It sounded OK in the monitors, but we get a different sound engineer at gigs that are not stage mixes. Quilter has just come out with a device similar to the Superblock. It has two balanced lines out, and I am going to put one in the FR 12 and give the other one to the sound engineer. That way I can control the feed to the board.

[John Sluszny]

Oops!

[John Sluszny]

...Quilter has just come out with a device similar to the Superblock. It has two balanced lines out...

Is this the one you're talking about ? Thanks. https://www.quilterlabs.com/products/di ... pify_email

[Brett Lanier]

I’ve been using the xlr out straight to foh and monitors, sans speaker.
I never expected to use the toneblock at all because I don’t really like the amp all that much when using it into a speaker. I brought it along to use as a backup rig, but when compared to my A rig which was a ‘67 showman through a Palmer line out box, the Quilter sounded better in my in ears and through the PA. We compared the cab sim out to the xlr and settled on the xlr. The cab sim sounded a little like playing through a plugin, with a strange digital sound on the high end… probably wouldn’t notice it if I wasn’t using in ears though.

So I ended up using the last thing I thought I would… and the moral to the story is to try every combination (through the pa if possible) and decide what sounds best to you.

[Jon Jaffe]

John Sluszny, Yes.

[Steve Lipsey]

quilter site says the XLR out has a cabinet simulation function for a variety of speakers...worth a try...

[Dave Grafe]

...The manual claims (and Travis' video) says that the XLR direct out somehow uses the dynamic load characteristics of the speaker to affect the signal. Hmmm.

The front panel 1/4" output is the one to use when you have no speaker at all, also as a headphone out. According to TT, there is some "modeling" on that output.

The XLR is essentially a low voltage parallel tap on the power amp output/speaker line, thus reflects the changing impedance and associated response of the speaker. The 1/4" out on the front panel is a preamp out, quiet and clean but requiring different eq than that used with the speaker and its inherent 3k3Hz roll-off.

I have not tried going direct live but I plan on trying the XLR soon.

[K Maul]

I never met a sound tech who didn’t like the XLR out on either my Quilter Aviator or TT 202. I find in a live situation the less hassle and complexity the better.

[Ian Rae]

Sound techs find XLRs comforting. I know, I used to be one

You're never sure what you're getting with a jack

[Douglas Schuch]

When I tested the line-out vs. mic'ing on my TB 202 I decided I liked the mic'ed version better. That's the best way to find out - try both in a controlled situation.

[Dave Grafe]

When I tested the line-out vs. mic'ing on my TB 202 I decided I liked the mic'ed version better. That's the best way to find out - try both in a controlled situation.

There is a certain comfort level with a good mic that you're sending what you're hearing. Film at eleven.

[Johnny Cox]

I use a 202 and go direct out of the front output. Sound guys love it.

[Wiz Feinberg]

I played a large outdoor show in Bay City, Michigan and the sound man put a mic in front of my Nashville 112 speaker. I told him it had an XLR out on the back. He said he preferred using a mic to capture my actual sound as I hear it. That was nice! How that translated out front is beyond my knowledge.

This was the exception. Most sound men prefer an XLR out from either the amp or the preamp pedal I use.

[Dave Grafe]

We had a top notch guy mixing our little festival today and I had my own monitor mix, so I sent him the XLR out instead of putting a mic on it. Best stage sound ever, rather conclusive.

[Jon Jaffe]

The key to your statement is

We had a top notch guy mixing

We just played an outdoor gig in the same venue a week apart. I gave the sound engineer the balanced feed from my powered speaker. The guitar, bass, and drums were miked. It sounded like we were playing in my living room at house volume. It was great.
The subsequent week, we had a different sound guy with the same feeds, and it was a complete cluster. Last night, we had a backline. I had to play steel with a Blues Junior.
So one doesn't have control all the time.

[Dave Zirbel]

I’ve had great results with the Quilter direct out on my micro pro. I use my speaker as my monitor. The sound guys love it. Pat Quilter knew what he was doing, especially since he also designs and build PA gear. In fact I think while the Quilter sounds acceptable on its own, I think the sound going direct out is equally as acceptable if not better..all in my humble opinion. Being a gear nerd and tube amp snob, I would be dragging out my heavy vintage tube rigs if the Quilter sounded bad…

[Mark Hepler]

Lynn,

It's an interesting topic.

I'm going directly and love it, using another brand though.

I've noticed that most of my steel's sound travels through our PA's woofers. So I wind up pumping out pretty-much a combo amp tone anyway. Not as sparkly as a Nashville 112, maybe, but nice-sounding.

Tell us how you make out!

[Ken Metcalf]

Old school.
Z-Bar and Sennheiser.
I can go direct and have in ears but don't like it as much.
Plus there are kids in my yard, Gotta go yell at them! LOL