Backup/transfer Workstation tunes to PC based software

[Tony Prior]

My Yamaha AW2816 does not have any USB or modern means to back up files to a PC, it backs up to an on board CD burner in a proprietary file structure, not Fat32. But, it does have MIDI IN, OUT and THRU and the ability to perform as the Master MIDI unit or SLAVE. unit .

So, I set it up the Yamaha to act as the SLAVE with Sonar8 being the Master. Of course my PC MAudio card only supports 2 analog inputs so I can only transfer 2 tracks at a time in real time, but with a song of maybe 6 or 8 tracks, 3 or 4 passes allows transferring Workstation tunes over to Sonar, ending up with however many tracks you need. When syncing the Workstation I feed one channel left and right to each of the the two Sonar inputs , each Workstation channel ( L+R ) is one individual track. If you need to send a Stereo track send it into a Sonar ( or other Host program) stereo track using both inputs.

Recording/ backing up in real time may appear to be archaic , and it is, but it sure beats not doing it at all !

The one caveat, your Workstation must support MIDI IN or OUT and allow syncing with another unit, which I believe many do.
tp

[John Gould]

Which version of the AW2816 do you have? I have a buddy that brings tracks over that he does on a Yamaha AW2816. He brings them on a CD with wave files on it and we load the wave files right into Pro Tools LE with no problem and they line up fine. In fact they went right in Audacity with no problem as well. He says check out the manual about exporting tracks as wave files. It saves a bunch of time.

[Jack Stoner]

I should know how to do it, but don't. How do you sync tracks in Sonar 8? or should I just read the help file and try and figure it out. I've had to get help from the Sonar forum for a couple of other things that was in the help file but confusing. I've got some recordings on my Fostex VF160 that I should move over to Sonar for doing whatever I need to do them and then mixdown. I can do two channels at a time either analog or Optical S/PDIF with the Fostex.

The Fostex has MIDI and I'll have to "RTFB" to figure out how to use that, if it can be used for this purpose. I can MIDI or the S/PDIF into Sonar 8 with my new Focusrite Saffire Pro 40 that I just got (nice unit but almost no documentation and you are bascially on your own to get it installed and working).

[Tony Prior]

John, yes you can save each mono track to a Wave, one at a time, or two tracks to a stereo pair,( or all of them to a stereo wave ) but that's not what I want to do. By midi syncing you can run two tracks at a time ( or 4 using the Omni out) to the PC program , such as Sonar, In Sonar you open 4 tracks, in my case I am limited to 2 , arm them and just hit the play/record button, Sonar starts and so does the Yamaha.

The Yamaha Wave process requires converting files to Wave within the Yamaha hard drive and takes up tons of space. It's an extra step in the process.

So, Sonar starts, records from two selected tracks from the Yamaha,( stereo out) , when complete I repeat the process by adding additional Sonar tracks and selecting two different Yamaha tracks. You can listen back to the Sonar recorded tracks while monitoring the new tracks being recorded, because it is all the same midi source code it is the exact time stamp.

Jack, under options, project, the midi fields are listed and easily setup, it took all of 5 min to do this using Sonar as the Master, yesterday I did it with the Yamaha as the Master . Are you asking about syncing the two machines or Sonar tracks, If you transfer by midi they are already in sync as they start with the same midi source code. If you are dropping wave files in you need each wave file to have a time stamp so you can align them within Sonar. Blow up the time frame and you can get them correct.

The entire point of this for me is to run the tracks un- mixed, un-mastered , dry, and to save them in a Sonar project file for later use , editing or storage. Each Sonar track is one instrument, just like on the workstation.

John, it is possible to save each individual track as a Wave on the Yamaha hard drive then transfer each track individually , time stamped. I would like to know what direct transfer option your friend is using, my only options are SCSI or burn to a CD. To me, the midi transfer in real time , two tracks at a time is very effective, I don't need to do anything other than be sure the song file on the Yamaha has the midi setting set as Slave, then select which two tracks I am sending , then, just do it ! The Wave process on the Yamaha requires a ton of free space on the hard drive, of which I do not have. Additionally, the Yamaha CD burn time is also a time hog.

If I have a 4 min song with 8 tracks, I run it 4 times for a total of 16 minutes. I don't even need the easy button !

tp

[John Gould]

I was think that you would save a extra A/D conversion and you would get a better sound. But if your getting what you want audio quality wise I'm all for whatever works. I don't know what kind of hoops my buddy goes through to get the stuff on CD.
The bottom line is are you having fun making music?
That's what it's all about not technology right?

[Tony Prior]

The bottom line is are you having fun making music?
That's what it's all about not technology right?

If it wasn't for technology getting in the way I would probably have written 2000 songs by now !

The A/D thing, I can't tell any difference , but you raise a good point, I can do a digital out on the Yamaha and a digital in for Sonar , maybe I'll try that when I get the energy. There's only 6 or 7 songs on the Yamaha hard drive anyway and they are not for any real purpose other than they are there because they can be.

t

[Jack Stoner]

I just tried a recording I have on my Fostex VF160. It has 5 tracks (and needs at least two more) and I set up my Focusrite Saffire Pro 40 for the analog channel interface. Set up Sonar 8 and then transferred (played) two analog tracks(I set the faders for one channel "left" and the other channel "right") into channels 1 and 2 in the Saffire Pro 40 and then recorded them in Sonar. I went back and played two more tracks and recorded them. Finally, went back and recorded the 5th track and amazingly they are all in sync! (or if they are not it's not noticeable).

[Tony Prior]

Kool Jack, they are in sync, that's the entire purpose of the midi clock signals.

What got me thinking about this a week or so back was that years back, mid 90's, I had a full midi studio with early Cakewalk and a Tascam 80-8 1/2 inch tape machine which I had sync'd to the PC and Cakewalk. To use the two platforms together you had to stripe 1 channel of the 80-8 , usually ch 8, with the midi sync clock signal, it was always connected to the PC and Cakewalk. This allowed 7 audio channels to be run at the same time as any or all of the midi channels.

So, a curious mind over coffee in the early AM made me realize that the Yamaha was already able to talk the midi talk with Sonar, a few buttons had to be set , a click here and there, a midi cable connected and there ya have it !

No Easy Button needed here.

t

[Jack Stoner]

Tony, no MIDI was used, I came out of the Analog outs on the Fostex VF160 and went into two Analog input channels on the Focusrite Saffire Pro 40, firewire interface unit. I can't see where there was any sync. Since I started the Fostex and Sonar at the same time I guess I just got lucky.

[Tony Prior]

Jack, wow! I am really impressed ! You did not use the midi sync from Sonar ? The specs for the Fostex state it has midi in and midi out, It can run in either the Master or Slave mode, wouldn't that be easier ?

(I have lots of manuals for recorders that I downloaded over the past year or two, the Fostex is just one of them )

Jack, if you did this without sync you are the luckiest guy on the planet, I'm sending you $5 for the Florida Lottery ! ( buy ME the tickets they are not for you )


t

[Jack Stoner]

Fortunately, almost everything I want is off the Fostex and any new recordings are being done with the Focusrite Saffire Pro 40 Firewire interface and Sonar.

I did three demo songs for Jimmy Peppers today and they were done with the PC, not the Fostex. I don't think I'll get rid of the Fostex but I don't plan on using it anymore.

[Tony Prior]

Same as me, I have a few tunes on the Yamaha but nothing really worth saving or nothing I couldn't do again if need be.

I am getting ready to finish our first Sonar project,maybe even this coming weekend, I am in the final stages. We are also getting ready to do another 5 or 6 song demo, I may use the Yamaha to record drums but that would be it.

Post some of your finished tracks, I would love to hear them.

t

[Bill Terry]

nevermind...

[Tony Prior]

never mind what

[Bill Terry]

I had a lengthy explanation of how I transferred some tracks from a VS-1680 to my Ensoniq Paris System, but as I reread it, I realized it was probably more confusing than helpful..

[Tommy Bannister]

has anyone tried vegus pro 8 plus a simple interface like Lexicon lambada ,its very easy to use plus you get to save it in a veg file so as to load instantly back into vegus.

[Tommy Bannister]

you csn use AS many tracks in vegus as you WANT record !!!!!!

[Tommy Bannister]

the lexicon interface has two mikes in two midi ins
plus two lines in
and one instument quter inch in for instrument
I tellya all for recording this I find is the simple way to go
VEGUS PRO 9NIS VERY VERY GOOD AS A PRODUCTION EDITON TOOL

[Tommy Bannister]

please excuse my spelling as my stroke warped my brain!!!!!!!
tommy,uk.

[Tony Prior]

The issue was never the recorder or platform that was being used to receive the tracks, it was the Yamaha AW2816 limitations on how many tracks it could send at one time. This I am finding is fairly common with workstations in general. They can USB connect to PC's and save projects but the tracks within the projects are not available individually. The transfer limitation I was speaking to was due to the source unit not the receiving recorder or platform.

I did just use the midi sync ( Yamaha >Sonar ) and ran the tracks two at a time into Sonar and it worked out fine for the few projects I wanted to move.

BUT, as reported in another thread.

Zoom solved this issue with the R16, R24 and the new R8. Each of these units records ALL tracks as separate and individual wav files. Each project saves files in the project audio folder. If you have 10 tracks in a project there will be 10 wav files in the audio folder. Moving them to a PC for backup or a DAW for a session is easy as pie.

The Yamaha is sold, a Zoom R16 has been purchased and the DAW platform is now Pro Tools 8 so between the R16 and Pro-Tools it's a pretty flexible scenario.

The Zoom R16 stand alone workstation should not compete with or be considered a hi end workstation, not for $350, but what it does do is compete at the mid price point for home recording with the ability to record 8 tracks at a time as separate and available files with the ability to move the files into a DAW such as Pro Tools, Sonar, Cubase , whatever...

A decade ago nobody cared about file structures, we were wrapped up in the unit, the features etc..how big is the hard drive. Can I burn a CD ?

Not anymore. Hello 2011...we care about moving files, sending files across the internet and then loading them back into the same DAW . We have a new care factor !

[Tommy Bannister]

TONY oops!!
SORRY FOR GOING OFF OF YOUR ISSUE
IT WAS NOTINTENDED
TB

[Tony Prior]

Not at all Tommy, all information shared is useful, I never even knew about Vegas Pro until you shared it.

It's all good..

thanks

t

[Scott Henderson]

Tony can you not save them as single wav files off of your yamaha...I have transfered entire songs individual waves to CD and then I can import them directly to my PT. I lose effects, volumes edits, etc but I would want to redo that anyway...
just curious....

[Tony Prior]

Hey Scott, well sort of. I could transfer one track at a time or one stereo track as a wav file to a CD. Then imported those wav files to the DAW. But with several projects and multiple tracks per project, what a time hog. That model Yamaha did not have any USB or PC connectivity. A fine machine but no PC access.

This actually seems to be fairly common with some of the workstations, proprietary files and a limited means to save individual track files, sure you can back up the whole project but cannot really projects into separate track files..

until now

Zoom R16/R24 and the new R8.

I'm sure there are others that do this but the Zoom fits the bill, no need to look farther.

Now the Zoom does not have any midi sync but in the scheme of things it really doesn't need it with such good file management.

The Yamaha had excellent midi sync ( master/slave)so moving files in real time to the DAW with midi sync was really not an issue ( two tracks selected at a time) but I could have used the 4 OMNI outputs and moved 4 tracks at a time.

too much thought...

Life is easy now ! Pro Tools 8 and the Zoom as an add on to that DAW makes for an easy home recording life.

t