Recording Setup and Sound.

Austin Tripp · Post by **Austin Tripp** » 9 May 2010 4:07 pm

Ive been having some trouble lately coming up with a "signature" sound when I record. Here is my complete studio setup- Emmons LL3, Hilton vp, Revelation tube preamp, TC-M350 processor,, and from the preamp I plug into the "power amp in" into a Peavey NV1000 and I use a Shure 57 mic ( never record direct ). My problem is, every recording I have, sounds different. I always use the same settings on the preamp but its like it changes. I know I will never sound like Paul Franklin (( but im using this as an example)). I would like to have the clarity of Pauls recordings. Could it be the engineers? Tone really dont matter to me as long as I can play,, but I would like for the notes to be clear and not "muffled" kinda like Ive been getting lately. Hope this makes since to someone.

richard burton · Post by **richard burton** » 9 May 2010 9:12 pm

You've got too many gadgets in the chain in my opinion.

Why do you say that your tone doesn't matter to you?

It's the one most important ingredient in any players endeavors

Clete Ritta · Post by **Clete Ritta** » 10 May 2010 12:22 am

Austin,
The problem with using a microphone to capture sound from a loudspeaker is that unless the mic is placed in exactly the same spot each time (nearly impossible), the sound recorded will vary. It's hard enough to maintain the dials on an amp and assorted other gadgets consistently besides having mic placement to deal with. Have you considered recording a direct signal (either from the VP or preamp out) as well as the mic?

Clete

David Hartley · Post by **David Hartley** » 12 May 2010 11:17 pm

A couple of things come to mind here. You firstly say you're not too bothered about the tone as long as you can play? It is very important to get the tone of your instrument right before you even start recording. You will also play better with a better tone too. Secondly, the shure mic is ok to mic up at a loud gig to put steel through the pa system but it certainly isn't the right choice for recording. As I say, get the sound you want through your set up and have your speaker almost in your ear too while you are setting up your sound and then mic it up at a similar distance to where your ear was to the speaker. Consider the studio projects c1 microphone. It's about $250 I seem to remember and it's good for everything and I have compared it to microphones costing $2000 and it performs just as good. You will need 48volt phantom power to run the mic. Another tip is to start afresh with your settings and dials. Spin them all round and use your ears rather than your eyes on the numbers of the dials to get your sound. Try a recording after writing your settings down. Then do the same the next day with fresh ears. You will eventually come up with something you will like Austin. It may take hours or it may take weeks or months too but you will get what you want. Also and this is my last point. Be prepared to try out other equipment including amps and maybe even guitar. I know someone who took 3 years to get what he wanted an 3guitar changes. He was ready to give it all up too at the time but now is as happy as 'pigs in muck'

Many regards Austin. I hope some of my ideas are helpful to you.

David

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 13 May 2010 2:22 am

Excellent comments from some very astute players !

Here are a few of my thoughts...

1) effects and preamps etc...should be used AFTER you already have a quality sound, they will not make a raw tone better. You really must know what your stock sound is , guitar and amp, first.

2) fresh strings, if you want consistency, start with new strings , tone begins there.

3) don't be afraid to experiment with direct recording, sometimes in small settings you may be surprised with the results.

Recording and being consistent with tone is something that many of us chase, even if we record often. Personally I am a fan of direct recording as I have found "my way", but it didn't happen overnight. Also, I rarely use effects other than reverb and some slight delay.

Nashville 1000's can be very strong on the mids , hard to tame. Mids will jump out on a recording more than any other EQ setting ending up with a very muddy end result. As mentioned above, maybe try another amp ? Fender tube amp maybe ?

At the end of the day , for me, I would say that the #1 item for consistency and tone is fresh strings, especially for recording. I change strings on the Steel every 4 - 6 weeks when playing out and I plan Steel recordings around when the strings are the newest. I change strings on my "gigging telecaster" every week.

Wishing you success, I hope I helped.

t

Austin Tripp · Post by **Austin Tripp** » 13 May 2010 6:14 am

Thanks Dave and Tony! I appreciate your advice very much. I didn't really mean that the tone doesn't matter to me. I've just been focusing on playing and style more than tone. But I feel like I kind of have my own sound when I'm just playing. But when I record, I have a muffled sound. I'm going to post a sound sample today and let you guys hear sort of what I'm talking about. It varies between the different studios I use. I do appreciate all the advice and I will keep everything in mind.

Austin Tripp

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 13 May 2010 6:32 am

Hey Austin, next time you are in the "cans"...

maybe try an experiment..

Steel / amp only

Steel/preamp/ amp

Steel/preamp/ effects/amp

see what happens

t

Clete Ritta · Post by **Clete Ritta** » 13 May 2010 4:47 pm

Tony Prior wrote:...Personally I am a fan of direct recording...

Tony,

Thanks for sharing that.
I used a Mullen S10, a Hilton VP and an Avalon U5 preamp into ProTools for a CD we just released.
All I provided was the source material for the producer to add eq, effects, reverb etc in mixdown. Im very happy with the results.

Clete

David Winfrey · Post by **David Winfrey** » 13 May 2010 7:21 pm

I'm pretty big on going direct for recording. I like the Avalon U5 DI as Clete was talking about. Or you can go with a conventional preamp such as a Presonus ADL-600 tube pre, or a GML solid state pre. It's hard to go wrong with any of those.
If you are set on using a live micing technique for your recordings, then I'd say drop kick that SM-57. They are good utility dynamic mics for live and a few recording applications, but you want either a good quality condenser mic or a ribbon mic for recording.
My opinion is that for recording the less devices you run through before going into the console, the better. EQ and reverb can be added more effectively and will usually sound better with a "drier" signal. (It can also be added to your headphone mix as you record so that it doesn't sound dry to you.)
Good luck with your endeavors!

Michael McGee · Post by **Michael McGee** » 14 May 2010 10:03 am

Austin, you're getting some great tips from great players.

The fact that you are hearing differences is a good thing. I would encourage you to start researching a recording topic called "masking".

Certain instruments in similar tonal ranges can cover up other instruments on recordings. Even though we can try to have the same "settings" on steel when we record, we seldom end up with exactly the same accompaniment on other instruments. Depending on the adeptness of the recording/mixing engineers, we can get buried through "masking".

Certain steel players have praised a particular brand of steel for many years because it had tonal qualities that "cut through" a mix.

They learned that no matter how good they were as players, or how much they loved the way their guitar felt and played, it didn't matter if, in the final mix, they couldn't be heard.

Keep studying and experimenting... and trust your ears!

Austin Tripp · Post by **Austin Tripp** » 14 May 2010 12:29 pm

Man I love the forum! I really appreciate everyone's advice. I will try something different like recording direct or maybe with just an amp. I was messing around today with pro tools ( I'm no expert ) and I feel like I have a pretty descent sound. Here are my settings on my Revelation. Gain 7, Treble 3, Mid 0, Color 7, Bass 8, Vari Z 3 o'clock, Dark switch "on". It sounds real good to my ears. I also turned my delay up and the reverb up and it changed the tone ( to my ears ). Thanks again everyone for the wonderful advise!

Austin Tripp

Mark van Allen · Post by **Mark van Allen** » 22 May 2010 10:09 am

Hi, Austin, some great advice here. Another nod to the "masking" issue- your tone will depend somewhat on what else is on the track, frequency ranges, compression, etc.

I have a live rig I'm very satisfied with (Walker Stereo steel, T.C. Electronic effects), largely because it's so consistent from venue to venue, but it can sound radically different from studio to studio. (Micing is a big part of that) If I read your initial post correctly, there are various engineers and studios involved in your projects.
I find one engineer using a preamp or compressor as input for the steel tracks, while the next may go directly into the board, having anything from Neve, SSL or API input cards, to Mackie or Behringer. Sometimes through direct boxes, sometimes straight into the board.
With all this variation, I've settled on using a Peavy TransTubeFex for my steel preamp, conditioning, and if desired for the track, effects. I get a much more controllable and consistent sound over the monitors, and I can usually sit in the control room and converse with the producer and engineer about what they want.
I really prefer the Walker live, but the TTFex really delivers for me in the studio. And a lot less to haul!

Austin Tripp · Post by **Austin Tripp** » 22 May 2010 10:18 am

Hey Mark. I was just curious, do you know an awesome guitarist named Chad Gantt? He mentioned your name the other day but I didn't know if you knew him or not. Thanks again for the recording tips. I have sessions all next week so ill get to try several different stuff out. Thanks

"Little Hoss"

Jeff Valentine · Post by **Jeff Valentine** » 30 May 2010 1:42 pm

Austin,

I agree that some great advice has been given on this post. I did a session not long ago at loud studios on Nashville and Julian King was the engineer and Brent Mason the producer. Julian has recorded Paul Franklin in the past, and says Paul always uses a Sennheiser 421 microphone. He placed it right against the netting at the lower left hand side of the cone on the front of my Webb 614-E. I added some delay and took all the reverb off so he could add that himself. He did have to thin the sound out a big using one of the TDM plugin EQs with Pro Tools 8. This goes along with what everyone else is saying about competing for frequencies with other instruments. The sound that sounds best when you're playing alone won't always work with the band. I use a Revelation Tube Preamp and always use the Dark setting for recording. I'm sure you'll find the great sound you're looking for with the help of all the great players here on the forum.

-Jeff

Hal Higgins · Post by **Hal Higgins** » 2 Jun 2010 10:44 am

Hey Austin...for sure you've gotten some super advice from some great players and guys who've been there and done that......I just want to tell ya what I did, just last week in a session for in a studio I'd never worked in before. He was running Pro-tools LE 8....nice studio with some great "stuff"! First I set-up with my NV 1000 amp with a Holy Grail patched in.....I noticed that I was getting some "white noise", so I told the engineer about it and said that I'd like to try something else. I had a BSS Audio active DI with me, so I said let's go through it directly into the console.....we did and it eliminated the white noise completely. Set the tone settings almost flat....put a little reverb/delay, from his program, and voila....great sound.....

Mark Wade · Post by **Mark Wade** » 18 Aug 2010 4:44 pm

Hey, I got to be in a session were Paul Franklin played steel, the session was in Nashville.
Paul did not use his rack on this one his chain was:
Guitar volume pedal a Boss foot pedal and a Nashville 112 with a SM 57 in Iso room. Not sure what preamp they used at the console for the mic, software was Pro Tools HD and I ask the engineer if he eq'd Paul he said just a little hi's the rest was flat. The sound was awesome of course. Just thought I would share this.
Mark

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 18 Oct 2010 6:51 pm

If you use the Revelation Pre right into a good mic preamp, and no tone controls or other things,
besides a touch of reverb POST recording,
you can get a great sound.

The Studio Projects C1 - - T1 range mics are fine
and worth the money for sure.

The Avalon U5 is a great DI box, but isn't a tube unit.
But putting the Revelation through it straight, no EQ., is a good option.

The Presonus Bluetube is a fine little tube preamp,
can record clean and can add some intentional tube grit to your recordings. Great for the price.

Earnest Bovine · Post by **Earnest Bovine** » 18 Oct 2010 7:39 pm

David L. Donald wrote:If you use the Revelation Pre right into a good mic preamp, and no tone controls or other things,
besides a touch of reverb POST recording,
you can get a great sound.

Why do you suggest using a second pre-amp after the Rev, as opposed to going from Rev directly to the A/D converter?

John Macy · Post by **John Macy** » 18 Oct 2010 7:50 pm

One thing you have to remember, and I have seen it more times than not, even when you leave everything exactly the same overnight (or even going out for lunch), it sound different when you come back...

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 18 Oct 2010 8:47 pm

Simple reason, the Revelation is mic level out.
It would have been nice to have a +4 line out on it.
It is a great Preamp in any case.

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Recording Setup and Sound.

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Thanks again everyone!

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