Digital Multitrack Recorder

Wade Branch · Post by **Wade Branch** » 26 Apr 2008 6:20 am

Iam in the market for a 16 track digital multitrack recorder to get started on learning how to record.Here's what I want or would like to do with it.I would love to record my 5 piece band live and in the studio,I would love to make my own rhythm tracks to practice to ,record my steel playing and then be able to push of a button and record it to a CD inside the machine.
What are the do's and dont's to look for ?

Do the multitracks have a port on the back to plug an optional computer monitor ? That little screen looks like it would be hard to read for hours at a time.

Should I find one that has a pre-amp for my steel to plug into ?

How old of a machine is to old (technologically) ?

What brands are the best to worst ? (in your opinions)

Jack Stoner · Post by **Jack Stoner** » 26 Apr 2008 6:49 am

I've been using a Fostex VF160 hard drive recorder. It is "16" tracks but you can only record 8 at a time. It is the same way with most other brands. They say X number of tracks but in reality it can be less so you will need to read the "fine print" on any model. But what you can do is record 8 tracks, move them to the upper 8 channels and that leaves room to record 8 more channels. I usually swap the lower to upper and then any tracks that must be redone, there is room and I still have the original track in case I need it. Same way with singers, I leave the "scratch" track there until the singer is satisfied with his "final" voice track.

But, I've recorded a lot of sessions that had drummer (2 channels), steel, lead guitar, fiddle, bass, rhythm guitar and singer. The Fostex will take "instrument" level, "mic" level and "line" level as there is an input level adjustment pot.

I don't know of any that has a connection for a video monitor screen, although there may be one.

I'm in the process, now, of converting to computer based. But, I'm going to keep the Fostex as it's handy for "on-site" live recordings.

Wade Branch · Post by **Wade Branch** » 26 Apr 2008 2:44 pm

Cool,Thanks Jack....Anybody else know of any recorder that you can plug a computer monitor into the back of the recorder in place of the little screen ?

Richard Sinkler · Post by **Richard Sinkler** » 26 Apr 2008 6:09 pm

None of the ones I checked out (under $2000) has the monitor out feature.

I have a Korg D3200 32 track, but as Jack says, you can only record a certain number of tracks at one time. The Korg is 12 tracks (8 XLR and 4 1/4"). I tried a Boss BR 1600 and didn't like it. You have to work it like Jack says. Record on the first 8 channels and move them to the upper (9-16) tracks to be able to record the lower 8 again. No direct access to tracks 9 - 16. The Korg allows you to assign the input ( 1 - 12) to any track number so as to have access to all the tracks without having to bounce a track to a different track. The Boss also dedicated a stereo track (two of the sixteen tracks) to the internal drum machine. I was able to record my synth drums onto the track though. The Korg does the same with a stereo track that is in addition to the 32 tracks. The Boss also dedicated a stereo track to mixdown (9 & 10 ) I believe. The Korg also has a dedicated seperate Master track (for mixdown and mastering) that doesn't use any of the 32 tracks.

I only had the Boss for a week, so I may have not gotten into it far enough, but those were the observations I made while using it and reading the manual.

EDIT: I just did a search for a recorder that has a monitor output and found a Tascam X48 that has this feature. It is rackmount, 48 tracks and has a price tag of $4000.00. I think recorders in this price range is where you will find the monitor feature.

Have you thught about computer recording?

Bob Martin · Post by **Bob Martin** » 26 Apr 2008 9:39 pm

Hey Wade, check ebay out Ive seen recorders for around 1200.00 to 1800.00 maybe less or more that you can find that will do everything you are wanting to do including having the capability to plug an external card into that has a vga video out as well as a mouse. I know for sure that at least 2 or 3 of the higher end Roland recorders just above the BR-16 have the ability to buy the add on card for a couple of 100 bucks and then the next step up on the Roland recorders comes with a vga out already built in. Most of these will have the capability to record 8 to 16 channels at once as long as some of our inputs are digital as in a digital keyboard and digital guitar effects like most of the newer guitar and steel effect modelers do they are called either coaxial spdif or lightpipe but now mainly called tos link all that means is it will transfer the guitar signal or any instrument you have connected to it thru a digital cable there is very little difference between the digital coaxial digital signal and the tos light pipe they both are digital and can be used to transfer any instruments signal that is plugged into it just make sure your recorder has both interfaces if you are wanting to hook any of your band members instruments to it.

In todays newer recorders they are just about all migrating to vga monitor capability thats just about the only way they will ever compete with computer but of course this feature adds to the price.

If you don't have that much money to spen you would actually be better off with a cheaper recorder like Jack was talking about (the his Fostex sounded great) and just get use the smaller screens (you can adapt pretty fast)there are so many under 1000.00 that it's scary

or even consider moving to computer recoring you can get a really nice computer recording setup including a new computer for some where around 1500 to 2 grand less if you can live with less input channels. My first computer and interface (it was capable of recording 4 tracks simultaneously) for recording only set me back 400.00 (everything I needed to record high quality 16 bit cd's) and I could record 16 very good tracks and even a semi pro recording which sounded much better than I had been getting with the cheaper stand alone recorders and after a while much easier to use and see all of the tracks to edit.

Its just like anything else you usually get what you pay for good luck.

Big Bob

Wade Branch · Post by **Wade Branch** » 27 Apr 2008 5:40 am

Thanks Bob and Richard for taking the time to respond.

I originally wanted to go the recording thru a computer route verses the stand alone recorder, but I thought since I have no recording experience, I probably should start out with a 16 channel stand alone to learn the art of recording and then I would eventually move up to a computer type.Thats my logic for what its worth.

Jim Peters · Post by **Jim Peters** » 27 Apr 2008 6:19 am

Last week I helped a friend record a demo for his band, using a Korg D888. It was extremely easy to use, worked perfectly, did exactly what we needed. We then transported the tracks via USB to computer, where we will do the mixing. It is so much easier to see, and really excellent free vst effects are all over the internet. The Korg was around $700, and worked beautifully for the recording process. JP

Richard Sinkler · Post by **Richard Sinkler** » 27 Apr 2008 9:17 am

Yes, I forgot to mention the fact that most if not all recorders out now have digital in/out and USB so you can transfer file to PC for storage, importing into recording / mastering software for editing, mixing etc...

I still have not seen any newer recorders (other that the one I mentioned earlier (searched many online music stores) that have a monitor out port. Should be standard on all recorders in my opinion. Of course, you can get used to the small displays. As a keyboard player, I find the displays similar to synthesizer displays, so getting used to the Korg recoder's display was easy.

Richard Sinkler · Post by **Richard Sinkler** » 27 Apr 2008 9:46 am

After reading Bob Martin's post, I became curious. I went to the Roland Website and they list 3 recorders with VGA outputs:
VS2400CD
VS2480CD
VS2480DVD (has large monitor screen)
Must be a new line to replace the VS2000 series.

I searched some of the major online stores, but none have these recorders.

Same Day Music has a Roland VS2000CD18 (not new) for $1099 and sells a VGA adapter for $245. They only have 1 in stock.

It seems that Roland is the way to go if you want VGA.

Bent Romnes · Post by **Bent Romnes** » 27 Apr 2008 11:04 am

If you end up having to pay over $1000 for a recorder, i would like to suggest that the way to go would be a good quality Mixer and a quality recording program in your computer.
The setup I am currently practicing on is:
Alesis Multimix8 USB 2.0, $300-350
Adobe Audition 3.0
recording software , $360
for a total of about $700.

With this setup, you get more flexibility while recording. You run the signal pretty well 'dry' out of the mixer into the computer. You do all your enhancements, mixing and mastering + burning your CD's in the recording software. That way you have way more control over the final product.
Because, once you have dialed in a setting on the mixer, and record it, you are done. It's there forever.
Doing the same in Adobe (or a program of your choice) leaves your options open to play around, add mor or delete the complete edit.
Plus, you have way more editing features in a software as opposed to in a consumer type mixer.
John R., does this sound about right?
Just my not so HO
Bent

Jack Stoner · Post by **Jack Stoner** » 27 Apr 2008 1:53 pm

I always recorded direct with my Fostex VF160, no EQ, etc on record. On mixdown there can be whatever added to the channels (usually just a little reverb on selected channels).

My new Computer based recording setup is an Alesis io26 8 channel firewire interface unit and Sonar 7. I also have some external combo tube or solid state mic and instrument preamps, and some compressor/limiters I can use on the input if needed. Obviously more will be added later.

Charlie Paterno · Post by **Charlie Paterno** » 27 Apr 2008 3:29 pm

I too am thinking of a recorder and wonder are most guy's using their main computer or a total different setup to record? I wonder about having to shut down virus programs and others that run all the time. Dropout problems.

winston · Post by **winston** » 27 Apr 2008 4:35 pm

Wade
I have a Fostex VF160 hard drive recorder just like Jack was talking about I am going to sell if you are interested in a good used one. Winston May

Richard Sinkler · Post by **Richard Sinkler** » 27 Apr 2008 9:42 pm

If you are going to go the computer recording route, make sure you check the requirements of the software. Most require more than a normal run of the mill computer. A dedicated computer is best. The more computer resources you have, the less problems you will have with latency and be able to record more tracks. This is all dependent on you computer's resources.

I bought a Dell (strictly for recording) with 1gb RAM, 500gb hard drive, 300 ghz, which was more than Cubase required. I still had problems and decided to go to the multitrack recorders. I can't seem to get anything to work with Microsh*T Windows XP.

EDIT: If I was to do it over again, I would buy a Mac for recording. I know some who use Mac and have no problems at all. Definately a better operating system.

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 29 Apr 2008 2:01 am

Wade, this is always a good conversation. My take is that if you are NEW to multitrack recording go the simple route first, a small workstation.

There are countless nice units out there many of which can be had for just a few dollars.I would agree that the Fostex units are a very good deal and very easy to use. If you can afford one of those BR1600 Boss units, they are also pretty kool, they can do a ton for you very easily but are not cheap. I would agree that 8 available recording tracks at the same time is going to be required for what you are suggesting. When we did a few demo's here at the house I used 4 dedicated tracks for drums. Two overheads, kick and center . Some folks use only two tracks and it sounds great.

Keep in mind that workstations that use hard drives, the hard drives are always spinning and if you don't back them up someday the HD will stop spinning, for good

been there done that.

Most of the newer units use media memory cards . For what you are thinking about doing I think you can get started with a small workstation with at least 8 true tracks . If you want the Video output you are going to spend a whole lot of money and once you are in that mode I would go the PC route.

Regarding the inputs for your Steel, they all have a HI Z input but the preamp effects are not going to be Steel friendly. You most likely will have to learn how to edit and save a few patches, not hard , but you will have to do it at some point. A small tube preamp is also a good idea to remove some of the digital harshness.

Transferring to PC is going to be a very important factor. Many of the NEW machines can burn to disk or may require transferring the finished file to the PC. I personally prefer transferring all final mixes over to the PC where they can be archived as well.

I suspect that most of the workstation cats have a procedure they use to get the finished product over to the PC. I use a Boss Micro BR for mastering which saves the final product in MP3 or Wave. sometimes I transfer the final stereo mix to an Edirol Stereo wave recorder and then master on the PC with another program. This can get way to goofy.

If your PC can handle a direct stereo input and record in stereo, you are all set regardless .

Start small, get some exposure then you can determine where you want to take this stuff, there is no ceiling . If you start with a small system you will learn very fast what is important and what is not, then from there make your choices for going forward.

I would not just jump into recording a full band demo just yet. Start small work your way up.

Don't forget that the entire purpose of all this stuff is to record MUSIC , sometimes we loose sight of that and spend more time fidgeting around than actually playing music.

thats why when you go to a pro session, there are Musicians and Enginners !

Dick Wood · Post by **Dick Wood** » 29 Apr 2008 10:54 am

Wade,

I have both the Yamaha 16 track and both Reaper and Cubase Computer recording software if you'd like to come by and check out various ways to record.

Give me a call if you want to stop by.

Billy Woo · Post by **Billy Woo** » 30 Apr 2008 6:46 am

I just noticed your post and my bass player is selling his 18 track Roland recorder for $450.00 + shipping and Handling from LA to wherever? It hooks up to your choice of any VGA monitor and you have the original 18 tracks plus 16 additional virtual tracks within each of the existing 24 tracks. You can contact me if you are interested.

Billy Woo aka
Bronco Billy
Cell Ph 310-614-9237

Dick Wood · Post by **Dick Wood** » 4 May 2008 12:25 pm

Wade,

Give me a call, I may be interested in selling my Yamaha AW4416.

Frank Sprague · Post by **Frank Sprague** » 27 Jun 2008 9:41 am

Wade - I use a Boss- Roland BSR 900 for the little bit of recording that I do. It seems to work great , has a lot of features on it , and burns out a CD easily . . I paid a little over $500.oo for it a year and a half ago , and I think they are cheaper now . . I run it back out of a M-audio soundboard for practice or whatever. Mine does have a USB port in the back , but I've never used it . . Lot of guys say it's a tough learnlng process , but if you take it one step at a time , you'll get it . .

Mark van Allen · Post by **Mark van Allen** » 27 Jun 2008 7:15 pm

Hi, Wade, I have been using a dedicated custom studio computer (running windows) for Pro Tools LE for a couple of years now, (computer 1K, Pro Tools LE and Digidesign 002 Rack interface $600 used, $1200 new). I originally got that setup as a learning tool to step up to a larger rig, but it's been working so well that I just keep on using it.

You would need to use a mouse for mixing and recording, unless you spend a bit more for other hardware, and to record your band live would probably need a laptop to make the system portable. The effects included in PT software are serviceable, but one of the "problems" is that there's so much third-party software that's so great you can spend a fortune on just effects, eqs, compressors, and so on.
Despite what people say, a windows system can be very stable for ProTools if you use a dedicated computer and don't make it do a bunch of other stuff.

There is a learning curve for the software though, and things like setting all the inputs and software settings etc. can be pretty daunting when you're first starting out and trying to get a live recording set up. Not so bad when it's just you...

From what you've been saying I can recommend a stand-alone multitrack system, the cheaper Boss/ Yamaha stuff may have some real limitations and compromises. The built-in effects on those kinds of units usually are pretty lame. But a dedicated stand-alone recorder might be just the trick, since they work just like a standard tape recorder. Before getting into ProTools, I loved the Tascam DA-38 digital recorders I was working with. You need a (small is ok) outboard mixer or a send from your larger band mixer (effects send will work) and just go direct into the recorder. There are accurate VU meters for setting levels, and you just mix down later through your mixing board, using whatever effects you want with that. The Tascam (unlike the Alesis style) record to Digital HI-8 camera tape which you can find at WalMart on a Sunday, very clean and accurate, great punch ins, etc.
The Tascam units have 8 tracks in each box, and you sync them up with one cable for as many tracks as you need. I used to use four at a time for 32 tracks.

If that's the way you might want to go, give me an email, I have several mint condition units I could get you into cheap.

Leon Grizzard · Post by **Leon Grizzard** » 29 Jun 2008 6:11 am

I have a Korg D1600, the predecessor to the present D3200, and would (will) upgrade to that when we do our next CD. The limitation on number of tracks at a time is really not that big a deal, unless you plan to use it for recording the whole band at one time. If you do the typical process, you lay down some scratch tracks, and start laying tracks one or a few instruments at a time. (I think the D3200 will record 12 at a time, but I could be wrong).

What is great about the studio in a box is that you know everything will work together and you have a decent set of built in effects etc. Also, I really like the portablility; record one place, mix at home.

Screen size is an issue, and a lot of D3200 owners use magifiers.

Greg Cutshaw · Post by **Greg Cutshaw** » 29 Jun 2008 6:32 am

I used the 16 track Yamaha AW-1600 for about two years then upgraded to the Yamaha AW-2400. I really like the convenience of having the music workstation near my music and separate from the PC. It seems that Yamaha has discontinued the AW-2400 and most people are opting for the PC /USB route.

The Yamaha has pristine effects and can burn a CD directly. It also has a USB port that will allow yu to quickly tranfer a whole song or just a final mixed stereo track to your PC. That way you will have a back up in case the AW-1600 hard drive fails and you can also use your PC to convert the mixed file to an mp3 or wma file to post on the net or email to other people.

My condenser mic works well direct to console but a dynamic mic like the Shure SM-57 requires a preamp so I bought the $100 Yamaha MG/10/2 for that. If you are doing live recording, the Yamaha is limited to like 8 channels or record at one time even though it is a 16 track machine. This is pretty limiting if you intend to mic the drums.

Here's my recording setup and process.

Greg

Gary Shepherd · Post by **Gary Shepherd** » 3 Jul 2008 11:11 am

You'll have a much more versatile system if you go with computer based recording. Something like Cakewalk Sonar. Sonar is a bit on the expensive side but you can get some stuff for near free. Computers have unlimited number of tracks (depending on your CPU of course.)

Kevin Holmes · Post by **Kevin Holmes** » 8 Aug 2008 3:10 am

Although I'm setup for standalone recording (having trouble getting decent results) I was thinking that I would have been better off using my computer.

Is the only limitation of the smaller interfaces the number of tracks that you can record to at the same time?

I'm thinking in terms of the Lexicon line. The Alpha (the smallest one) has fewer inputs than the other t wo.

--Kevin Holmes

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