Pagliere Steel Guitars

[J D Sauser]

I think the possibilities with this are almost limitless.
Not just instant C6th to E9th but also conditional changes... what if a pedal's value changes depending on what other change was in before?
What if one could assign an E9th's E-to-F change to different exact values based on it being played "alone" or against A&B down or only A-down?
What if some combinations which create other chords would see all the other strings adjusted to it?

Will there be those which say "No Way Jose! I ain't playing a computer guitar!"?
Sure there will.

But I do think that it is a VERY valid and serious proposition and a respectable and commendable effort by Alan and one I predicted would come in the late 1990's here on this very forum here.
The only thing which surprises me, is that it took so long.

... J-D.

[Gary Spaeth]

a really low-cost beginner psg would be very possible with this tech. you could take a rogue and really soup it up. imagine what you could do to a dobro.

[Joe Bill Moad]

Members of this Forum:
I cannot (in my wildest dreams) imagine someone who is smart enough to think of an added product line that will take pedal steels to another universe. Fender as you all know did this with their Amplifiers. The great sounding Twin Reverb has a little brother now that is a modeling amp. 4 different wattage options(makes playing guitar or fiddle or Steel Guitar manageable at the sound levels needed instead of the tube style that would blow the front row off their seats with the volume on 2. Pricing on the fender Modeling amps is real low compared to the vintage 200 watt Twin Reverb that revolutionized that trademark fender tube sound for all kinds of Music! My son bought the Fender twin modeling amp for $800.00. A vintage twin is high and getting higher priced everyday! The new amp weighs 35 pounds and the old one with JBLs weighs over 90 lbs. I will place a bet with anyone on here that the new computer driven steel will be less than $800 starting out? Now here is where they will get us, this new one only has 9 possibilities for different tunings. In very short time they will have hundreds of possible tunings for all the genres that will start buying these miracle inventions! Thus the price will climb with more bells and whistles. I bet the single neck without all the steel and aluminum fixtures will weigh 25-40 lbs max?

Get ready Men and Women we have a new Toy and it will sound as good as any steel has and better than most built today.

Respectfully

Joe Bill Moad

[Bob Carlucci]

It won't be ""revolutionary"" in my opinion.. It will be similar to guitar synths, digital drums kits, modeling amps, and all the other high tech wizardy of the modern age..There will be buyers at any price, of course. However, lets see how many make it onto pro stages and backlines, or even into the vans and backseats of hard working semi pros and weekend warriors. Modeling amps were going to be the game changer, as they could do everything,, Make any sound you want!.. Never happened.. most of the cheaper ones were sold and are still being sold to kids, and the high end ones to guys that want to "lighten the load" for a few gigs at a little downtown bistro, or for some home recording. Go to a show, anywhere, with truly good players where the guitar players or steel players are using modeling amps.. Might be a few outliers, but I would bet money that 95% of the good players with experience and skill are using time tested, robust and dependable designs, either tube or solid state, with VERY few digital modelers making the cut. As always, look at what the pros use..

I'll believe in "digital reproduction" pedal steel guitars as the wave of the future when I see a few of them played by those that make a living with them, or those that are serious part timers... I think some will be sold, maybe quite a few, but will be relegated to tidy ,well kept, upscale "music rooms" in the homes of those with the means to buy this new technology. How many will be played regularly and endorsed by top players?.


As with anything else, the price will dictate the popularity.. If these can be made and sold really reasonably? Substantially cheaper than a traditionally built pedal steel guitar?
Then we might see game changer status. I suppose time will tell.

In any case, an interesting design by an obviously highly skilled, very smart guy...bob

[Joe Bill Moad]

I agree 100% with Bob! Time will tell. And the Clock never stops.

The best part of the alpha and beta pedal steel is that there are actual strings on them that have to be tuned manually, just like the ones built since time,(This is BIG!)
That takes the (modeling affect 100% out of the equation) in my opinion. Next the groundwork underneath the PS we play today is completely gone with the new style that doesn’t need the frustration working on mechanical rods,nuts, bolts, fabricated parts, etc.

Now anybody can feel comfortable owning an Instrument that the worst part or the most confusing part of them is eliminated now. So just worry about staying in tune. This is too much to wrap my arms around. Just think of all the music genres out there today. These new PSG’s can and probably will replace a lot of the midis and synths out there that we seniors have no use for. I just love the United States and its inhabitants that still believe in inventing and making things more useful to the common Human Being. What a World!

JBM

[J D Sauser]

Members of this Forum:
I cannot (in my wildest dreams) imagine someone who is smart enough to think of an added product line that will take pedal steels to another universe. Fender as you all know did this with their Amplifiers. The great sounding Twin Reverb has a little brother now that is a modeling amp. 4 different wattage options(makes playing guitar or fiddle or Steel Guitar manageable at the sound levels needed instead of the tube style that would blow the front row off their seats with the volume on 2. Pricing on the fender Modeling amps is real low compared to the vintage 200 watt Twin Reverb that revolutionized that trademark fender tube sound for all kinds of Music! My son bought the Fender twin modeling amp for $800.00. A vintage twin is high and getting higher priced everyday! The new amp weighs 35 pounds and the old one with JBLs weighs over 90 lbs. I will place a bet with anyone on here that the new computer driven steel will be less than $800 starting out? Now here is where they will get us, this new one only has 9 possibilities for different tunings. In very short time they will have hundreds of possible tunings for all the genres that will start buying these miracle inventions! Thus the price will climb with more bells and whistles. I bet the single neck without all the steel and aluminum fixtures will weigh 25-40 lbs max?

Get ready Men and Women we have a new Toy and it will sound as good as any steel has and better than most built today.

Respectfully

Joe Bill Moad

I agree.

This year, all we started hearing as a new talking point was "AI" this, and "AI" that. And for a while I thought "yeah, warm that crap up again, as long these things are programmed by thick glasses wearing nerds thinking in the old "IF->THEN" scheme, these things won't "THINK" and rather run themselves into a forgotten cul-de-sac (aka. "crash"/"freeze")... and oh well, GOOD.
But this year we are finding out that this is no longer the case and the first reaction was scare, worry and rejection.
I remember well the first question I asked "ChatGPT", which was "how long until AI will come to the conclusion that humanity is an existential treat to AI?"... instead of giving me a clear number it chose to respond like a politician and I knew then we are screwed... it's learned the art of LYING in my face with a big ol' smile.

That being said, I am with Elon Musk on this, in that if WE don't use and expand on it, the worse actors (North Korea, China, Russia, Iran etc) WILL and will USE it AGIANST us, and I also agree that the first victims will thus be those who will not use AI, because they will be passed on the express line by those who do. This is especially true for white collar jobs which are facing the same treat now that blue collar workers faced over 20 years ago with the automated manufacturing revolution.
I have a friend who looks like a garden dwarf, not very sophisticated at all, and he works for me in one of my businesses Overseas. He did some work which heavily involved writing and I was stunned by the quality of the writing, the context, grammar and syntax. He confessed that everything he does, he re-researches with AI, has his texts checked and corrected by AI... essentially he works with AI from "A" to "Z" and handles tasks I did not expect a guy I pretty much picked off the street to start doing at age 60.

The word "Revolution" came up in the next, and comparison to digital keyboards, drum kits etc. I would recommend asking acoustic piano and other instrument builders if they don't feel that this was a revolution. Piano builder in the US build a mere 10% of the piano that they built in the 1920's and keep in mind, meanwhile the population in the US QUADRUPLED... so, by head count... 2.5% of the market they had. Certainly it also has to do with the introduction of Radio, TV and later Internet "entertainment" which is eroding creative productivity faster than anything before.

I don't know that THIS guitar and proud and bolt project will be the "revolution" IN the steel guitar community. But imagine for a moment a large instrument maker like Yamaha, some kind of "Digital PSG" on a plastic chassis for 299.oo made in China, which to cheapen it, uses an App on your iPhone or Android to run it, just because one of us gets a chance to lay a cool track with our mechanical contraption in a hot movie behind Nicki Minaj (I know, some of you are googling "Nicki" now because they can't remember seeing her on the Grand Ol' Opry stage (you might see Beyonce soon, thou!) ) and suddenly Millions of Minions (PLEASE don't tell me you are googeling "Minions" now too! ) want to recreate that sound?

Let me finish with this:
I've learned about the say "If it ain't broken, don't fix it" on this very Forum.
I have known some of the most ferocious advocates of this "ideology"... and some have become friends, but none has contributed much more than that "advice", and most are sadly long gone, and in most cases forgotten, which is even more sad.

By the way... I am fully aware of my tendency to sarcasm, I actually cultivate it consciously. Sarcasm is however, unlike cynicism, meant to make others laugh too.

I am J-D. Sauser and I endorse this message!

[Alan Pagliere]

First off, thanks to everyone for your interest in this project. It's pretty darn gratifying that the comments are overwhelmingly positive.

I was going to quickly poke my head in to answer some of the comments on this post, a few of which seem to be hopes for the project, or speculation, or assumptions.

However, as I said in another post, this format doesn't make it very efficient for commenting on questions one by one. And since many of the same questions and comments come up repeatedly here and in other venues, a while back I added a FAQs page to the website:
paglieresteelguitars.com/faqs

to specifically answer recurring questions.

I know the website is ... wordy. I hate leaving out information. Of course, the flip-side of that is that people will read a bit and then just quit.
It's well known that the same is true of YouTube videos; as a rule, people drop out after a surprisingly short time. (I see all that in the website and YouTube channel analytics.)
So it's a given that some people will walk away with less than a full understanding of the project's history, development, evolution, tech used, etc. and then assume things based on that.
I'll say that it's my fault for not writing in a way so engaging that people ... can get past my writing

So, with all that said, I'll list some of the questions/assumptions people have here, but instead of answering them one by one directly, I'll just ask that you look over the whole website again, especially that FAQs page, where I try to deal with them specifically.

- Is the OnePSG a "revolution"?
- It ain't broke OR Synths, computer driven, modeling, digital, MIDI, even ... AI! OR Where's the humanity?
- Yay! An inexpensive pedal steel!
- How is it tuned?
- You can't trust electronics.
- It won't be valid until it's adopted by real players.

Here's that link again:
paglieresteelguitars.com/faqs

Okay, that's all for now.

[Jack Wilson]

Why does it have tuning keys on the strings? It would be more compact and less weight without them

[Greg Cutshaw]

From the FAQ:

"Why are there tuning keys? Is tuning even necessary?

Since the OnePSG uses standard metal strings and magnetic pickups for a true pedal steel sound, the strings do have to be tuned, as on any electric stringed instrument.
And, like any traditional PSG, the physical open strings’ notes are are the starting points for pitch-shifting.
A regular tuning key head was built into the Alpha Prototype. For the Beta, we’re going with a keyless tuner/nut to experiment and to reduce the weight of the guitar."

[Greg Cutshaw]

I really like playing the E9th tuning in the key of F. You can hammer on notes and drop the bar on and off the 3rd string for effect. With this guitar I could do the same thing in the key of E or F# or G etc. Song's in D# but you want to use open string drones? Just capo down. For recording this open up a lot more riffs in a lot more keys.

[Doug Earnest]

I have looked at the information available. It appears this thing is pretty much de-bugged. I don't know what impact it will make but I certainly applaud the efforts.

It would seem to my fairly uneducated mind that technology might better be able to consistently alter the pitch of a note than varying the tension on a length of wire. There is certainly much to be gained here.

The comments about maybe being able to buy this for $600 or $800 did make me laugh out loud. The legs cost over $100! And $15 for strings.

Congratulations Alan! Keep right on with your project.

[J D Sauser]

Why does it have tuning keys on the strings? It would be more compact and less weight without them

While, would that be my project, I would have gone down a totally different route (and Alan knows that from some back and forth we had), mainly because my thinking wouldn't be commercial, I would suspect that, given the modernistic aspect alone of having digital pitch shifting with a touch screen on board, Alan Pagliere may have opted to at least maintain a "classic PSG"-LOOK with the classic wooden upside down "U"-shaped cabinet plus neck and keyhead, and even the end plates holding the legs like most mechanical PSGs have been built for decades.

I would have gone keyless, floating soundboard and clean intonable bridge with string-thru-the-body attach all the way. I would also have wanted the individual string pickups to run on sliders so to be moved individually from a bridge to a more mellow neck position. And I would have had a commercial (Android) Bluetooth pad detached from the body (and he explained to me why the later would be a bad idea (and he made a very valid point against it!)).

As far as the need of (open)-TUNING, I BELIEVE to understand that, similar to to a mechanical PSG, the digital pitch shifting system only ALTERS the open tuning as programed in programed + or - values (the programed "setup"), and thus, if would be out of tune in the changes if the strings were out of tune. Alan may want to clarify that to us.

... J-D.

[Alan Pagliere]

Thanks JD. Yes, you have it right.

In fact, your comment made me go back to update the FAQ about tuning keys and even why tune at all?

https://paglieresteelguitars.com/faqs#tuning-keys

... like any traditional PSG, the physical open strings’ notes are the starting points for pitch-shifting. It’s just that in the OnePSG, the pitch-shifting is done by means of digital signal processing. A picked string’s note is shifted up or down based two things:
1) the pitch of the open string of the copedent currently “in play” and
2) the interval some pedal/lever might add, taking into account that the pedal/lever might only be at some percentage of its full travel at any instant.
So … we want those starting pitches to be right.

[Tim Toberer]

The comments about maybe being able to buy this for $600 or $800 did make me laugh out loud. The legs cost over $100! And $15 for strings.

It isn't crazy to think that this technology could some day yield an affordable pedal steel. Think how much the first cell phones cost. People will always pay a premium for higher end products like an iPhone, but there are options at all price levels. I see price of entry as the biggest reason more people don't play this instrument. I think people would expect a guitar like this to cost less eventually. Most people view things like computers, cellphones etc. as having a life of maybe 5 years at the most. I think this could be an issue for someone in the market for a pedal steel. How much will these be worth in 10 years??? 10 year old computers aren't even excepted at the Goodwill. I can build a set of adjustable legs for under $10 in materials.

[Ross Shafer]

Glad Alan has jumped into this discussion. I myself think this is huge for the steel guitar world and am super supportive of this project.

I absolutely believe that a very affordable version could be made, but only after its embraced by Korg, Roland, Fender....or someone else with the $ and mfg connections to make it happen.....and that's only if potential sales are projected to approach 5k-20k units a year.....to make the investment payoff. Sadly, the chances of this happening is extremely low given the current miniscule pedal steel market. Yes, it has the potential to bring a lot of new players into our sandbox, but it'd have be a really large number to get a big company interested.

Tim, I totally dig following your journey into building steels, hope you continue and am happy to answer any questions you might have as you get deeper into it. The steel community desperately needs more young passionate players, builders and mechanics. So kudos!

That said.... "I can build a set of adjustable legs for under $10 in materials" is just not realistic. Not sure what exactly you'd use to pull this off, but as someone closely involved in manufacturing for over 50 years....I just gotta say...no way. Not sustainably anyway!

Please take no offense as none is intended. Really not trying to be an a__hole, just offering real world input on something I have lots of experience in.

Alan's been working on this for a few years and I have a ton of admiration for his vision and persistence. Kudos my friend!

[Tim Toberer]

Glad Alan has jumped into this discussion. I myself think this is huge for the steel guitar world and am super supportive of this project.

I absolutely believe that a very affordable version could be made, but only after its embraced by Korg, Roland, Fender....or someone else with the $ and mfg connections to make it happen.....and that's only if potential sales are projected to approach 5k-20k units a year.....to make the investment payoff. Sadly, the chances of this happening is extremely low given the current miniscule pedal steel market. Yes, it has the potential to bring a lot of new players into our sandbox, but it'd have be a really large number to get a big company interested.

Tim, I totally dig following your journey into building steels, hope you continue and am happy to answer any questions you might have as you get deeper into it. The steel community desperately needs more young passionate players, builders and mechanics. So kudos!

That said.... "I can build a set of adjustable legs for under $10 in materials" is just not realistic. Not sure what exactly you'd use to pull this off, but as someone closely involved in manufacturing for over 50 years....I just gotta say...no way. Not sustainably anyway!

Please take no offense as none is intended. Really not trying to be an a__hole, just offering real world input on something I have lots of experience in.

Alan's been working on this for a few years and I have a ton of admiration for his vision and persistence. Kudos my friend!

No offense taken! I respect your work immensely and appreciate the thoughts-comments. Thanks for chiming in. You make some very good points. I am a bit more optimistic about the future of this instrument, but it may take a long time who knows.

Yes the economics of building anything worthwhile are very depressing. To make things affordable, a person would almost have to do it for charity. Small custom makers of anything charge big bucks for good reasons, and I doubt they are really making much money at all, most do it for the passion of it. I was never suggesting that these Pagliere guitars should be affordable, just the technology could help edge the instrument towards that somehow. These look more like a Tesla.

I am curious how many people are realistically interested in these guitars? My thought are if the price is between $4-8000, not that many. As the price goes down more and more people would be interested, but realistically how cheap could they possibly be? He will have to find the sweet spot I suppose. I have no idea what this technology really is and it isn't really my thing, but that doesn't mean I don't like it or support it. Quite the opposite. I think this could be the best thing for the instrument if it is done right.

My under $10 dollar legs are made of conduit. Most people will turn down their nose at this, but I like the way they look and they work great. They take a couple of hours over a few days to build. I can get 6 pieces out of a $7 piece. The adjustable piece at the end is 12" long and I get 10 of them out of 1 piece. The rest is all cheap hardware store stuff 1/2 bolt and nut, roll pin, conduit coupler and rubber feet. Chrome shrome, I love that zinc finish!
This is the video that taught me how. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sr6KfMWrBAc

[Alan Pagliere]

Tim, Ross, thanks for the good words and interesting discussion.

On the cost topic, lots of people are truly interested and have asked seriously about availability and price. They expect a serious answer. I think that that serious answer is: the question is premature. After all, it's in the Beta Prototype stage.

I've kept records for years of nearly everything I've put into this. It's a scary number, way more than I could have guessed when I started. Of course that well-documented amount is pretty much un-re-coup-able. And so is any dollar value that could reasonably be attached to the hundreds and hundreds of hours of my software development time and other work time and "learning on the job" time, etc. . But as you can easily imagine making money is not why I'm working on this project.

Tim, interesting that you used the word charity. I suppose it might be charity if someone, other than me, were to invest in this project. For me it isn't charity. It started as curiosity and morphed into a years-long mission to try to do something, hopefully positive, for the pedal steel world.

I lost count of the various companies I've approached over the years so I wouldn't have to reinvent certain already solidly built wheels (e.g., audio DSP). I thought that maybe I could license some of their tech/algos/hardware, etc. You know, pay ... them ... money.
I thought even one of them might be a partner or, failing that just helpful, or failing that, heck, just curious. The very few of them that knew about the size of the pedal steel market of course wouldn't even consider it. They want to make a profit after all.
But all of them weren't going to talk to me (anyone) about their proprietary suped up DSP tech. They're all doing just fine, they don't need a "cost center" in support of a tiny market, or even to bother with the very small income of a few licenses here and there.

Does anyone know if Mark Cuban happens to like pedal steel?

[J D Sauser]

Mark Cuban, huh?

Well, you never know. I know for a fact that Leonardo DiCaprio digs Django Reinhardt and “Gypsy”-Jazz so much that he has bought some antique Selmer-style guitars.

But “Investors” have that habit on wanting to see a business plan where they see how they a) get their money back and b) stand to make a nice profit, the higher the risk - the higher the profit potential must be.

We’ve seen big money being trusted to steel guitar ideas several times. Even bank loans.

The inherent limits of the steel guitar niche, is in my opinion one of the main reasons we had to wait so long for something like the PAGLIERE to come along. It’s all left in the hands of aficionados, and aficionados with money and time. And most people with money, tend to rather play golf IF at all they have time.


This is but one reason I am so defencive of people who innovate, and may seem cranky at the “if it ain’t broke don’t fix it”-crowd.
Let’s not forget that if it had not been for innovators Beauchamp at Rickenbacher, we’d still play acoustic guitas, or the Harlin Bros., Paul Bigsby, Shot Jackson, Buddy Emmons And so many before, in between and from there on we’d maybe still play without pedals or have our wife’s getting annoyed over coathangers going missing from the closet. We should celebrate folks like Alan.


… JD.

[David Wren]

My only question is why did it take so long?

I told my wife over 30 years ago this would be the future of the PSG. Why pitch shift every other stringed instrument, and not apply it to the mechanical "pitch shifting" done by PSGs and B-Benders on guitars?

That said.... I'll spend my last years and dollars on the old fashioned "pedal keyboard" (aka Black & Decker Work Bench)

For what it is worth, when I was 9, my mom got the first Sho~Bud in northern California (a blonde D-8, with 8 foot pedals)... and I myself have been playing steels since I was a teenager. Guess I was lucky enough to grow up with the instrument.

[John Sluszny]

Anything new about this fantastic guitar???

[Chris Templeton]

This looks a top tool to work on tunings and learning.
When the rack mount effects came out, there were so many choices to make for settings. After settling on 2 or 3 I neverhadmuch need for anything more.
I now find I like floor pedals more.
If I add a new sting string in a tuning, it always takes a while to adjust. A different string spacing is the same
Switching Hawaiian tunings makes a lot of sense for things like strum tunings.
Depends what you need to have in your arsenal.
The less that can cause a glitch in my chain, the better.

[Donny Hinson]

Great technology, although the very obvious ET "pitchiness" does bother my ears. However, software can probably fix that. The problem with this invention, as I see it, is that adding more possibilities (pedal/lever setups and basic tunings) will just make the instrument harder and harder to learn. Players will spend too much time trying out every technical option, and not enough time on the basics. I see this all the time, and I once heard it described by a lead player as "A hundred dollar player with a thousand dollar guitar". People get wrapped up in the glitz, fluff, and technology while losing the genuine skill and ability that makes people masters of the instrument. Nowhere is this more obvious than with all the CGI in today's movies, which seem to emphasize special effects while skimping on basics like storyline, composition, and lighting. Already, I can see many of the newer generation of players of the instrument shifting away from "good, honest music playing" to preferring to play textural backgrounds and soundscapes; off-the-wall, or out-of-the-box stuff, as it were. While that's an interesting area to occasionally venture into, I sometimes feel it can become a cop-out for players who want to play something that sounds good, but don't want to invest the seat-time to be an exceptional musician, like Emmons, Chalker, Green, Rugg, or Franklin.

[Chris Templeton]

For a song, a had a lever that raised a string a major 3rd. I believe it was 5th string, plain.
I took it back down to a whole step it because I didn't want to worry about it snapping. I can't remember what string or what song, but I'm sure it was on a thicker unwound string. This invention would allow me to have that change with less worry about breaking or using a looser string (less travel is needed for a lever with a string that's looser).
I'm still of the mind that less stuff in the effects chain that can go wrong, the better, though on a show, especially if the steel guitarist is the main entertainer and needs to keep the show rolling, this unit is probably is the thing to have. . I admire the knowledge and skill it took to put this together.
Then there is how the new tuning makes the string sound. Raising pitch digitally can make a note sound pretty cheesy.

[Fred Treece]

There is a Star Trek Voyager episode where the ship’s holographic doctor gets programmed by an advanced alien culture that has never heard music before to vocalize with his operatic voice in ways that would be humanly impossible. The “music” he makes becomes admired by the aliens from a purely technological point of view, but eventually the holographic projection recognizes that he is performing in a soulless manner totally devoid of emotional impact and not giving his audience a true representation of what the point of music actually is.

I am not saying this example is where players would go with this new instrument, but the possibility to take tunings and changes to extremes certainly seems to be inherent in the technology. It might come in handy if you were on a gig and got abducted by aliens.

The advantages have been duly noted, even if a player decides to just stay within the relative confines of conventional tunings and changes. I hope it is fair to offer a glimpse or two into how things could get crazy and produce unintended consequences. The genie is out of the bottle now, so I suppose we shall see.

[J D Sauser]

One thing which has had me somewhat preoccupied about this project, is the presence of "acoustic" sound from the strings which will not correspond to what is blaring out of the amp.

This past weekend I had to replace a bass player... on the steel and I used a pitch shifter (down 2 octaves) on my C6th. Evidently, the pitch is "parallel" but still, I wondered if it would bother me. It did not, even thou, I could still feel the vibrations in my hands, actually and oddly enough, more consciously than when playing "normally" (like we'd EVER play "NORMALLY" anything on THAT "thing"! Ha! )

I still hope to see this instrument in person.

... J-D.