Cubase or Protools for Windows 7???

Bill Terry · Post by **Bill Terry** » 23 Aug 2010 11:29 am

John, since almost every app exports and imports pretty much anything in the way of audio formats these days, why is it so important to your clients that you do Pro Tools? Is it because you get people bringing in entire 'projects', not just exporting wav files?

Or is it more of a 'credibility' thing????

Inquiring minds..

Bob Martin · Post by **Bob Martin** » 23 Aug 2010 7:49 pm

John and all others that think Pro tools isn't on it's way out try to look at it like this. Every audio application as we know it is soon about to change and be on it's way out. Technology is growing so fast that I believe in 10 years the way we record live music in our studios will be thought of as most of us think about "Alesis ADAT's" now and for that to happen there are going to be so many software as well as hardware changes that there is no way that the systems we use now will be viable recording tools at that time.

Please remember that I'm no mind reader or anyone that can see into the future but I can look into the past 20 years and I can remember what has happened and that's what makes me think "Pro Tools" will be a different and possibly even no longer be used in 10 years.

Just to play fair I don't believe Sonar that I now use or Cubase or even Nuendo will be used the way they are used today and the hardware interfaces we will use will be very different as well and I hope and pray they will all be interchangeable as they should have been from the beginning like MIDI has been since the 80's. My 39 cents

Big Bob

John Macy · Post by **John Macy** » 23 Aug 2010 8:53 pm

Being a commercial studio, many independent engineers and producers move around and select studios for what they may offer ie killer tracking rooms, the right gear for overdubs etc...most everyone walks in with a firewire drive and expects to plug in, open their session and go to work...in addition, most of these guys have rigs at home on on their laptops so they can edit/comp etc at their leisure, and it is always Pro Tools....as for the credibility thing, we get asked right off if we work on Pro Tools by lots of potential clients whether they know the difference or not...I could give a hoot about credibility and as Bill knows, I used the PARIS platform for a number of years and had to make the case against Pro Tools for a number of years....in ten years, maybe this will be a moot point like Bob says, but when the phone rings, and it is Los Lobos on the phone and they want to book time and make sure we have Pro Tools HD, well...if I had anything else, the session would have gone somewhere else....just saying....

Scott Henderson · Post by **Scott Henderson** » 24 Aug 2010 7:55 am

John I wouldn't disagree with you about Pt being the industry standard...and I do understand you gotta make a living..I like them all I have worked in several and prefer the won who can give ease of use and tech support...Right now I am using a stand alone Roland 2480. I like it right up to the point I have do on the fly editing llike one would do in PT,cubase, etc. not very friendly. On a NON commercial level I have heard of a lot of gliches in PT...Of course they all have their days...I have even thought of digital performer...which I have worked in as well. Guess it comes down to budget and personal pref. I think the first DAW I worked on was in Ft Collins on a MOTU and I think it was DP. That was a hundred years ago. Do you know the studio I'm speaing about..I think his name was Dan. This was in the 90's and he had just moved there from California. I think he used to work for Lucas films or something...Like I said a hundred years ago. Thanks for your input...

Bill Terry · Post by **Bill Terry** » 24 Aug 2010 8:01 am

John, so if I read your response correctly, you're saying it's a bit of both? A lot of clients have Pro Tools, and want to be able to just drop in a project and go, and then there are those who 'think' they need Pro Tools to be legit, whether they know anything about it or not???

I guess Paris was always a tough sell against PT, despite how good it was at the time. I've still got my system btw, I'm thinking about racking it all up to do remote tracking. Way better than selling it for pennies on the dollar.

John Macy · Post by **John Macy** » 24 Aug 2010 9:31 am

In a one man shop, where people come to you because they want to work with you, you can use pretty much what you like...they are there more for your skills than the platform, and they were there for the whole project. PARIS was actually an easier sell because it had some mystery to it, and no one else around had it, and it sounded unbelievable.

When I moved into my current facility, it is much larger (3 studios), and to compete I had to make the full Pro Tools plunge to make it work. Also, with the declining budgets, more and more people are doing part of the projects at home and the vast majority of these are PT based, so they can just take their drive home and work on it and come back here for the next phase. Everyone of the many independent engineer/producers that work a lot here in town are PT based, and want to be able to plug and play and get to work.

Like you mentioned, there are many who just assume Pro Tools is the only way to go and ask for it--I had a few clients back in the PARIS days who just assumed it was Pro Tools and I never bothered to correct them...

I think more composers are using Logic and Digital Performer these days as the MIDI implementation in PT was not up to snuff, but that has also changed with the 8.0 software... I think if you are working on your own projects find a system that fits with you and go with it...my initial post was to say I don't think PT is going away anytime soon in the professional world--they are too firmly entrenched and it will take a while to make them go away. That is not to say I am a big fan of the company--they force you to use their hardware, which they change every few years and you have to trade in and start fresh, and I don't think mixing in the box sounds that great--i do individual outputs into analog console to achieve what I want to hear...PARIS was the only system that got the depth and imaging that a console brings to the table.

So for me and my situation, Pro Tools is the only way to go, like it or not....and I truly think it will be a long time till another platform can reach the saturation it will take to become a standard...

Teddy Ray Bullard II · Post by **Teddy Ray Bullard II** » 11 Oct 2010 7:34 pm

Reaper smokes both of them...and for a lot less money..it is a serious tool.

www.cockos.com/reaper

Cubase is nice, but not as intuitive as Reaper. Reaper is great because it is made for musicians, the workflow is incredible.

these days, unless you work in a megabuck commercial sort of facility (or do film/post/etc), having PT is not that important. I am a recording engineer and can remember a time when having PT was a MUST...but those days are long gone. The Avid folks are losing ground fast.

besides, DIGITRANSLATOR allows files from any DAW to be transcoded into the PT OMF format.

PTs insane pricing schemes and proprietary hardware(although they just went native) are off putting...and as a matter of fact it is for this reason that 95 percent of my clients(I work with indie bands, bluegrass, garage rock, serving as a demo studio/grooming them for contracts with a major label.. cannot use Pro Tools, opting instead for Cubase/Logic/Samplitude/reaper/sonar/etc. I can honestly count on one hand how many times i have been asked whether or not i had PT...and have never lost a job because I didnt have PT. PT obsession has little to do with quality.. it is merely a fashion statement, an affliction for those in positions of authority who lack imagination... hardly a necessity for success, and in terms of workflow, Samplitude and Reaper make PT look sluggish and outdated.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/4 ... _File.html

the best thing to do is find what DAW works for you, what feels good... I would not get hung up on "you have to have PT" because you simply do not. I can also name dozens of commercial facilities that don't use Pro Tools.. for the most part, people seek out engineers for the engineers ability, not what program they use.

we live in a time now where we have dozens of choices at our disposal... I would not get hung up on "you have to have this or that" ...and just use what jives with you the best...if you want, keep a PT LE around for those unfortunate souls that have drunk the PT Kool-Aid.

John Macy · Post by **John Macy** » 13 Oct 2010 12:06 pm

quote:

"PT obsession has little to do with quality.. it is merely a fashion statement, an affliction for those in positions of authority who lack imagination... hardly a necessity for success"

Ouch...I guess my lack of imagination is working cause I'm still in business.

Interesting enough, there are two sessions in progress at the moment right now here--both came in as PT sessions on firewire drive...the session I did yesterday came in pre-produced in PT, and there was a tracking session that is leaving today for overdubs at the band's practice space where they have a PT rig...we do have Logic in two of our rooms that gets used a bit, and just added a rig running Reaper in the C room...I think I have been asked once in the last three years about Cubase and never about any other format other than Logic.

Every studio I work at in Nashville, from private rigs in engineers houses to commercial studios are all PT based...Like it or not, due the the saturation and comfort level, I don't see it going away anytime soon.

I totally agree that if you are a one man shop you can use anything you like...like I said above I used Paris for years and fought the PT battle...I personally can't stand the way PT sounds mxing in the box, hence we have consoles in our rooms...but the bottom line here is it opens our rooms up to lots of outside work that would not exist if we were in any other format...

Clete Ritta · Post by **Clete Ritta** » 13 Oct 2010 5:55 pm

Not a big PC fan, but I guess ProTools runs better on them now than in days of yore. MIDI was never ProTools forté so Cubase may be OK for now, till you get that Mac.

Scott Henderson wrote:...I am still eventually going MAC...

Bill Terry wrote:...go ahead and move to a Mac and Logic and be done with it...

I've got Pro Tools, Cubase and Digital Performer too, but if you're going to get a Mac and are doing MIDI composing I highly recommend Logic. I've used it practically since its conception by eMagic, and it is about as full featured as can be, and very stable on the OSX platform, especially since its changed hands to Apple. Its also much less expensive now. You can transfer into Pro Tools if you want to bring it to a real studio for mixing etc, but you probably won't need to.

Clete

Bill Terry · Post by **Bill Terry** » 16 Oct 2010 9:52 am

I'd like to make it clear my quote in Clete's post was strictly tongue in cheek.. Clearly, there are a lot of options when it comes to tools that can and do work fine. That said, I sure have enjoyed the Mac so far.. a lot of 'PC related' headaches are just gone.

Scott Henderson · Post by **Scott Henderson** » 17 Oct 2010 6:22 am

I bought the Mac and am going WITH PT..reason being is in the little world of recording I live in most of my people use PT..I've used a lot of them and don't see a huge earth shattering difference in most of them. The problem has not been the program it was always the pc. I love my Mac Book Pro.So I went with PT and a Mbox 2. I am keeping my stand alone (Roland vs 2480) So I have several options. I may eventually get rid of it but am taking baby steps for now.

Johan Jansen · Post by **Johan Jansen** » 17 Oct 2010 8:59 am

I use both, protools and Cubase 5.5.1.
Protools is the Studio-standard for the pro, but a lot of work comes from 'homerecorders that like to have pedalsteel, slide or dobro on their projects.
So they bring their HD with the multitracks and we record here at my place.
They are not that much in difference with possibilities anymore.......
JJ

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 19 Oct 2010 1:38 am

ok my take

They all record a track fairly easy...but, once you get beyond the track record....

Of course this is my opinion....

PT is the best platform and the easiest to edit... it feels the most natural when you are beyond the
"record a track" mode.

Cubase is not the easiest to use and awkward when it comes to functions beyond recording a simple track or two.. I used it and dumped it. It made no sense to me in the editing modes.

Audacity and Reaper are not the best hands down, good sure, the best..no...

Sonar is NOT the most user friendly when you get past the "track recording" but is not bad. Sonar is very easy with connecting external devices.

They all have a steep learning curve past the initial "record a track" and they ALL will have latency issues if you don't find the proper interfacing that matches your PC.

I have two versions of Sonar running on a Pentium XP, 4 gig ram machine...( maxed out ) I also have an M Audio Delta 2496 2 in 2out PCI card which basically eliminated the latency that comes with USB and Firewire devices. Effects and processing is simple and you can suspend recorded tracks from using processing . Mastering is a simple process as well....

I believe when selecting these packages as John mentions, they will ALL do what you want but it may also be important to think ahead, Pro Tools is the common platform for PRO's as it allows for global handshakes and project sharing. That is huge .

I believe Sonar is the 2nd big deal and probably could have been the first big deal as Cakewalk has been around for a long time. Industry selected PRO Tools but could have easily selected Sonar. I believe it was in the marketing.. "This is not a toy " attitude.

The packages that come with the interfaces , be sure they are compatible with hardware and have necessary features such as SAVE...many are limited to track count. That seems insignificant right now but will not be once you start adding and editing midi tracks or punches of audio/midi tracks.

so in short.. primary concerns

Latency
editing
hardware connect
does functionality make sense ?
PC processing time

Are you planning on collaboration ? loading or dropping files ( common platform, midi, MP3, wave) easily into a project has got to be simple and fast, selecting individual track inputs and outputs has got to be simple...

It's all how they are marketed, they all sound great when you are reading the sealed box.

good luck

t

Bill Hatcher · Post by **Bill Hatcher** » 20 Oct 2010 4:59 am

John Macy wrote:I don't see Pro Tools going away as a professional standard for a really long time...about 95% of our outside biz come in on Pro Tools and the remaining bit on Logic....the question most asked by potential clients is "do you work in Pro Tools?"....what has been a big business booster for us lately is also having analog tape as an option...Presonus may make a killer product, but professionally I would be out of business in no time if I switched to it....

you are right. no matter what you think about ANY of these programs, if you ever want to work in a pro studio, you will have to have your files at least in a format that is compatible with pro tools. does not matter if you like the sound of it or the hardware and software. pro tools is the default setting in the recording world.

if you are working at home, by yourself, and never need to take your files to another studio then whatever you feel comfortable with is fine.

the Logic recording program for mac is a very good sounding program with lots of features.

Teddy Ray Bullard II · Post by **Teddy Ray Bullard II** » 25 Oct 2010 7:54 pm

Bill Hatcher wrote:[
the Logic recording program for mac is a very good sounding program with lots of features.

that was my point.. if you work in "commercial" facilities , you do need some form of PT, but if you, like me, work with mostly indie bands and do everything yourself(recording/mixing/mastering), you can call your own shots. we all know that the recording business is not what it once was , and now musicians want real choices, not being confined to this or that hardware or software. the DIY ethos has hurt PT's market share(and the big studio's profits)

I've been away from PT for a while now, but i do have a little system(digi 003) that i keep for the goobers that think it is the only way to work.

PT is where it is not because it is superior, or innovative or even good... it was in the right place at the right time and the rest is history. when it was released there was nothing else like it. now there are several programs that are just as good(many much better to some people) but the music industry doesn't like change, so folks cling to what is familiar.

all that being said..

in the world of audio, there is no best. amazing results can be had with any DAW nowadays..so it is all about using what is comfortable, what workflow you are happy with, etc. I grew up with PT, but my classical recording business quickly caused me to drop PT like a bad habit(it is quite frankly *dismal* for classical music production)

and that being said.... I personally enjoy working on a RADAR and LFAC more than working on any software..

and when my ship comes in, I will be buying a console and a Radar system (I work on a Neotek Elan(with a lot of outboard) and RADAR Nyquist about 1/3rd of the time as one of my clients is a very wealthy doctor who has these in his HOME STUDIO.

if I could afford the console/radar approach, id drop software like a bad habit.

Clete Ritta · Post by **Clete Ritta** » 25 Oct 2010 9:56 pm

On Logic:
I guess my bias towards Logic is based solely on my comfort level with working in its Environment. I compose/record at home with a Keystation Pro-88 keyboard and use MIDI extensively, often before any "tracks" are even recorded.
On Sequencing vs. Recording:
Way back to the early eighties, I used to compose the same way with MIDI using Voyetra's Seq+ on an IBM 386 clone with really floppy 5.25" discs. What an awesome program that was! It was used in a few jingle houses in NYC at the time. It could transpose by key signature (not just incremental) into any key or mode. To record real audio, I would stripe one track of a 4 track Tascam cassette tape with SMPTE code and sync the PC to run unlimited MIDI tracks. I'd then bounce the remaining 3 real audio tracks around if needed. Believe me it was pretty cutting edge for a teenager then: MIDI was just invented. Years later I finally got a Mac Quadra and an early version of eMagics Logic. Been using that platform (updating hardware and software every year) since then. Of course many drummers were looking for work by the end of the 80s! (Hint, roll with the times and learn how to program drums as well as play them).

On Industry Standards:
Back in another day (it was Tuesday in the 90's) I did post production sound recording for film. We recorded foley effects using Avid's AudioVision (sibling to Avid's industry standard at the time for film and video editing Media Composer). The sessions were always conformed to ProTools afterwards, since that was, and still is, the industry standard for sound editors. A few years later they switched to recording foley in ProTools too.

Apple's Final Cut Pro is now used in many editing suites that used to house very expensive Avid systems for film editing. Logic is getting the job done as well in the music world, though I dont consider it an Industry Standard. When we say industry we are really talking about the entertainment industry which does include many forms of media beside sound recording, editing and mixing. This is part of why Pro Tools has had such a long reign on the top of the heap. Apple was certainly a part of that as it was the favored platform for both Avid and Pro Tools for many years.

Not many folk in the music recording biz worry about drop-frame time code the way film and sound editors do.

Pro Tools was always very capable at handling film (frame) oriented formats and conversions necessary for the entertainment industry first, but times change and so do some standards eventually.

Clete

Bill Terry · Post by **Bill Terry** » 26 Oct 2010 4:14 am

To record real audio, I would stripe one track of a 4 track Tascam cassette tape with SMPTE code and sync the PC to run unlimited MIDI tracks. I'd then bounce the remaining 3 real audio tracks around if needed.

Ditto... I did the exact same thing with a Teac A3440, and at the time it was pretty dang high tech. I found some old mixes off that Teac sync'd to MIDI rig the other day, and I'd forgotten how fat that thing sounded.

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 21 Dec 2010 11:53 am

Pro-tools 8 M Powered connects only to M Audio devices..

Pro-Tools 9 opens up to the world. Finally...

I have two versions of Sonar running, did have Reaper for awhile and did have a version of Cubase which made no sense to me.....Reaper is nice..

I now have Pro-tools 8 M Powered ( I have the proper interfaces for this version) and I can tell you this, NO issues, NADA, not one, not one glitch..not one crash, not one weird thing. And this is a 4 gig ram XP PC...

I also have two Sonars on the same XP PC...I will use them for E Sessions should I get the opportunity.

PT8 is a fine package, those of you who think it is going away, I think you are not being realistic. Easy to use, easy to edit, a makes sense work surface , not cluttered etc... I have been in half a dozen local studios over the past 6 months, all on PT, most on PT 8... For $179 , which I paid this is a bargain, a full package, a complete production package. Can you add more to it ? sure...can you spend a ton more cash for more plug-ins ? sure. But don't be led to believe that these packages are not complete, they are.

PT 8 does not have as many built in plug-ins as Sonar,ok, that's a given, but how many compressors, reverbs, delays etc... does one really need ? I only use one occurrence per track and it can be adjusted , modified etc to whatever the track need is. In Sonar I used the exact same reverbs, delays and compressor VST for every track, not the same adjustments, the same VST plug-ins .

PT comes with some sort of Drum editor, Sonar comes with Session Drummer, I use EZ drummer which installs to any platform. I also have Fender Amplitube which runs under any platform.

Both packages have mastering tools to be used on the final 2-track...or actually any track...

Pro-Tools 9, if it has good reviews for installing and connectivity, it may have the makings of becoming the #1 Home Studio package as well as the PRO package...if they get the price in line with the competitors they can take over the big home market race, price will dictate this .

Recording is one thing with these DAWS, editing and moving things around is quite another , this is a whole different world. PT rises to the surface here...

For individuals who are just plain hobby at home folks, it really does not matter what you use, they can all do the job and fairly well, but for others who are beyond home recording and offering services of ANY sort be it studio time, E sessions, etc...
packages like Pro Tools becomes a business decision. Having a common platform allows for incredible continuity. My local friend, PT 8 studio, works with Nashville artists and small studios on a regular basis, all on PT. So if the popular DAW platform is going to change, it has to take a lot of people with it !

Also,PT allows for selecting a few different file types ( wav included) when creating a new session, Sonar does not, The version of Cubase I had did not, I don't know if others do or not, but they should.They all should.

I don't know if PT can be called the best DAW but I certainly do not think it is BEHIND any of the others in functionality and ease of use. Right now people are making a living using it, it's called income,for some reason it has become the industry standard, I doubt they are going to change to Reaper any time soon.

t

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Cubase or Protools for Windows 7???

Re: Cubase or Protools for Windows 7???